Raptors Forum | Toronto Raptors Forums & Message Boards

Raptors Forum | Toronto Raptors Forums & Message Boards (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/)
-   Toronto Raptors (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/)
-   -   DeRozan or Bargnani (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/derozan-bargnani-23942.html)

LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! 11-01-2012 09:27 AM

DeRozan or Bargnani
 
So, both players lack essentially skills for their position (shooting for a shooting guard and rebounding for a big). Both players only do things on offense (although sometimes Bargs is ok as a man2man defender - not against David West though). Both of them are earning similar $ now :sigh:

So, who is better?
Who is worth more to the team?
Who's worth more given their contract?
Who is worth more in a trade?
Who would you trade if given the option?

I always critique Bargs but at least the guy can do different things on offense, DD, however, not so much. 9.5 million for a guy who gets to the free throw line and has an mediocre to average low/mid-range game. There was no rush to extend him. Wasn't Ross drafted in part to challenge him or usurp him (before anyone says it, they're both SGs, as is Fields)?

wchoi213 11-01-2012 10:31 AM

Barg is better than DD. Barg, as most people agree, has a solid offensive skill (and mediocre defensive skills..) DD has never been a big threat from offense/defense. He is average in offensive rating and below avg in defensive rating. If we need to "get rid of" one of these two players' contract, it will be DD. I am just hoping that DD could bulk up more and start playing as SF, to pair with Terrence Ross and dump Fields crap :)

carp 11-01-2012 10:44 AM

Give AB a pass, his conditioning was awful after battling the flu. He was balling in the first half and just got tired.

Caronte 11-01-2012 10:53 AM

DeRozanīs contract is horrible. Bargnani has not defense.

I would not be sad if both are traded.

We need defense in the paint. Near Valanciunas we need someone to provide defense, muscle, presence...

shenmui 11-01-2012 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wchoi213 (Post 695433)
Barg is better than DD. Barg, as most people agree, has a solid offensive skill (and mediocre defensive skills..) DD has never been a big threat from offense/defense. He is average in offensive rating and below avg in defensive rating. If we need to "get rid of" one of these two players' contract, it will be DD. I am just hoping that DD could bulk up more and start playing as SF, to pair with Terrence Ross and dump Fields crap :)

Agree

LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! 11-01-2012 11:55 AM

DD at SF- he'd be at a huge disadvantage. At least at SG he can post some sgs up.

Raptorman 11-01-2012 11:56 AM

DD running at the rim in the dying seconds of lasts nights game was a perfect sample of why he isnt a big time player. That shot HAS to go in. He hit the front of the rim.

I was hoping to see him as trade bait. But apparently he is the face of the franchise.

Oh well. Go Raptors.

LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! 11-01-2012 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptorman (Post 695462)
DD running at the rim in the dying seconds of lasts nights game was a perfect sample of why he isnt a big time player. That shot HAS to go in. He hit the front of the rim.

I was hoping to see him as trade bait. But apparently he is the face of the franchise.

Oh well. Go Raptors.

I was also thinking that he could be used as trade bait. Oh well, he's here for a long time. Raps have paid for potential + a player who's just been handed a bunch of minutes to him over the years.

moujik 11-01-2012 06:46 PM

I believe Demar is committed to improve and do all he can for the team.
Bargnani is an aberration of a player, but has more trade value thanks to BC's bullshit myth about his improvement on D.
Bargnani will never win a play-off series as a starter. Demar might.
No brainer.

LX 11-01-2012 07:07 PM

Ross was drafted because he could shoot, and defend. If they drafted Ross to usurp DD, then they were incredibly dumb to extend DD.

This season is about gaining some clarity concerning who belongs here. Neither AB nor DD is going to be the face of the franchise. The question will be whether they can find the right roles for the team to be effective. A trade needs to be made sometime in the next 8 months or so. The players will provide some clarity in how they produce with another year under Casey and Lowry and V added. And the interest in certain players among other GMs, and what they can offer will take care of any other clarity that is needed. One game isn't quite enough to suggest anything as of yet.

jeffb 11-01-2012 07:13 PM

Our biggest assets we have: Bargnani, Derozan, Valanciunas, Lowry, Ross, Calderon (large expiring) and to a lesser extent Davis, Amir.

One or more of those players will have to be moved in the 8-9 months in all likelyhood if we want to improve the roster. I also think that next summer we'll probably have to use our amnesty to gain a little more capspace now that Derozan will be making 8-9Mil next season. Prime candidate probably being Amir or Kleiza. If Colangelo thinks that the future of this franchise is Ross/Derozan at the wing he's off his rocker imo.

Raptors74 11-01-2012 07:17 PM

So, who is better? Bargs
Who is worth more to the team? Bargs
Who's worth more given their contract? Bargs
Who is worth more in a trade? Bargs
Who would you trade if given the option? DeMar

What DeMar has going for him is his freakish athleticism, other than that he is an average NBA player, if we can upgrade the 3 by moving him, get er done.

Admiral 11-01-2012 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 695627)
Ross was drafted because he could shoot, and defend. If they drafted Ross to usurp DD, then they were incredibly dumb to extend DD.

This season is about gaining some clarity concerning who belongs here. Neither AB nor DD is going to be the face of the franchise. The question will be whether they can find the right roles for the team to be effective. A trade needs to be made sometime in the next 8 months or so. The players will provide some clarity in how they produce with another year under Casey and Lowry and V added. And the interest in certain players among other GMs, and what they can offer will take care of any other clarity that is needed. One game isn't quite enough to suggest anything as of yet.

they drafted ross so he and DD can start at SG and SF, deciding who starts and which position will be decided when they figure out who is better where, only problem right now is ross is not yet ready and all signs are pointing to DD never really being ready

as for bargs or demar, its pretty obviously bargs, at least we know he has some skills, you can say both are terrible defensively, but at least bargs has an actual offensive game, demar's game is he can jump and dunk, but he has no abilities to dunk in traffic or over people, his jumping doesn't seem to give him an advantage when it comes to rebounding and he still has a very questionable jump shot and his IQ doesn't seem high enough to know what to do when he actually gets to the rim with his less than average ball handling
i really like demar and i wish him the best personally and not just for the good of the team, but he's really starting to show that his potential is probably being reached already, i just hope i'm completely wrong but 4th year already says a lot

jeffb 11-01-2012 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptors74 (Post 695629)
So, who is better? Bargs
Who is worth more to the team? Bargs
Who's worth more given their contract? Bargs
Who is worth more in a trade? Bargs
Who would you trade if given the option? DeMar

What DeMar has going for him is his freakish athleticism, other than that he is an average NBA player, if we can upgrade the 3 by moving him, get er done.

His athleticism is far from freakish. He doesn't even elevate that great imo. He isn't that quick, seems a bit flat footed and is often blocked or knocked off the ball fairly easily. He's not a great finisher in traffic, even now that he's a little stronger. His ball handling skills are still lacking. I like the kid but i have my doubts he can get a whole lot better than what we see now. Let's hope he does.

Ammo 11-01-2012 08:54 PM

Recognize that when Colangelo speaks of their "plan", he's not talking about some immediate leap to relevance. This year looks like another holding pattern, just another step up from last year with a shot at the playoffs. But something is likely going to happen in the next 12 months to make Derozan your clear 3rd/4th offensive option.

i.e. I would expect Jose's expiring along with the fact that there are extra parts like Kleiza and the Amir/Davis question to produce a stud a 3. And for those who don't like Fields at $6.25 mil, we've seen Colangelo move Hedo at 10 mil, so I would not be to concerned at the time when the Raps decide it is time to contend.

We may not be in a tank, but we are clearly still in an early climb until.....

I know that playe x is stil an unknown, but can you picture something like this playing Casey's system?

Lowry 14/5/8 (5 tool player)
DD 13/5/2 (defensive focus)
stud 20/5/4 (go to guy)
Bargnani 17/6/2 (floor spreader, but still rebounds like a little girl)
JV 12/10/2/2 (defensive focus)

LX 11-01-2012 09:56 PM

Yeah Ammo - I would say they are going step by step, but at the same time BC called this an acceleration year. That doesn't sound like a holding pattern. He's done his due diligence with this signing, but it's really going to come down to the players as to how he acts between now and the summer.

MBailey85 11-01-2012 11:18 PM

Bargnani is in his 7th season and about 27 years old, DeRozan is in his 4th and 23. I rather keep DD because there's still a little bit of a learning curve remaining for DeRozan to improve/develop. At this point,Bargnani is who he is. Can't really expect him to transform into a premier defender. If he continues to score beyond 20+ppg then that's perfect because he certainly can. One thing,if the Raptors can trade DeRozan and acquire a bonafied SF like Gay(ideally) or even a Josh Smith then go with that,because they'll compliment the lineup well with Bargnani and the rest.

LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! 11-02-2012 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by @BaileysBlitz (Post 695724)
Bargnani is in his 7th season and about 27 years old, DeRozan is in his 4th and 23. I rather keep DD because there's still a little bit of a learning curve remaining for DeRozan to improve/develop. At this point,Bargnani is who he is. Can't really expect him to transform into a premier defender. If he continues to score beyond 20+ppg then that's perfect because he certainly can. One thing,if the Raptors can trade DeRozan and acquire a bonafied SF like Gay(ideally) or even a Josh Smith then go with that,because they'll compliment the lineup well with Bargnani and the rest.

But he still has so much untapped "potential" as he's still so young :cookie:

Admiral 11-02-2012 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 695635)
His athleticism is far from freakish. He doesn't even elevate that great imo. He isn't that quick, seems a bit flat footed and is often blocked or knocked off the ball fairly easily. He's not a great finisher in traffic, even now that he's a little stronger. His ball handling skills are still lacking. I like the kid but i have my doubts he can get a whole lot better than what we see now. Let's hope he does.

agreed, the wing positions SG/SF are supposed to be the positions where a player becomes a star the fastest if they're supposed to have that much potential, all you have to do is get the ball and score and play D as well as you can, the rest of the team is supposed to play off of you on offense, scoring is supposed to come naturally, not only is it not natural to him he doesn't seem to be picking it up either
he has no 1 bball skill that he can bank on in game, all he has is athleticism which in some ways i feel like has been overadvertised and really isn't that good, i'm even almost certain that terrance ross might even be more athletic than him
the guy was just too raw in too many aspects of the game when it comes to actual skills on the court, there were and still are way too many skills he's got to develop, its asking a lot from 1 player to transform themselves, especially into the level of player he's supposed to be
i'm not saying ross is going to be good or anything like that, but at least he has a couple skills to start off with, he can defend, which means all you have to do is put him into the defensive schemes and his skills will work
and he can shoot, maybe they're not going in right now but at least you know he has a jump shot, maybe he has to work on getting the ball to fall in, but at least its not like demar where you had to pretty much change his form and techniques first so basically have to start from scratch, at least with ross it appears to just be a matter of getting used to the nba and the ball will eventually start falling
at least there is an entire package of skills there which just have to be brought up a few more levels
demar was and still is adding skills to the package let alone bringing the level of the skills up

TORaptor4Ever 11-02-2012 11:39 AM

TBH, at the moment I'd be very tempted to blow the team up and get rid of EVERYONE save Jonas, Lowry, Ross (since he's on a cheap rookie contract) and maybe Ed.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:35 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011


1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24