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-   -   Demar Derozan: Top 5 SG league-wide? (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/demar-derozan-top-5-sg-league-wide-26453.html)

TORaptor4Ever 01-30-2014 01:51 AM

Demar Derozan: Top 5 SG league-wide?
 
In light of a fantastic start to 2014 by DD I figured I'd throw this out there to hear some opinions.

Here are the top 25 scorers in the league at the SG position right now. Yes, I realize that not everything is about scoring but it's an easy way to compile the best players at the position for the most part.

1. Harden
2. Derozan
3. Afflalo
4. Ellis
5. Dragic (not sure why he's listed as a SG)
6. Martin
7. Thompson
8. Crawford (Jamal)
9. Hayward
10. Matthews
11. Gordon
12. Johnson
13. Henderson
14. Meeks
15. Waiters
16. Stephenson
17. Oladipo
18. Green
19. Crawford (Jordan)
20. Mayo
21. Manu
22. Korver
23. VC
24. Bellinelli
25. Foye

+ Butler, Kobe & Wade (missing from the list due to injuries)


IMO Kobe, Wade and Harden (and a totally healthy Manu) are obviously at the head of the class... but after those 3... I'm not sure that there's another guy on that list that I'd want over DD (fine, so maybe I'm a homer). Stephenson, Hayward and Afflalo would be his direct competition for spots #4 and #5 I think....

Thoughts? Where do you think he ranks?

Kirby 01-30-2014 01:52 AM

Stephenson is 16..?

jeffb 01-30-2014 01:59 AM

Top NBA Backcourts (combined per):


1. LAC Paul/Redick 46.0
2. PHX Bledsoe/Dragic 41.4
3. TOR Lowry/Derozan 38.0
4. MEM Conley/Allen 37.1
5. MIA Chalmers/Wade 36.8
6. GSW Curry/Thompson 36.6
7. POR Lillard/Matthres 36.2
8. HOU Lin/Harden 35.7
9. WSH Wall/Beal 34.1
10. DAL Calderon/Ellis 33.4
11. NO Holiday/Gordon 33.1
12. SAS Parker/Green 32.9
13. BKN Williams/Johnson 32.8
14. DEN Lawson/Foye 32.8
15. ORL Nelson/Afflalo 32.6
16. CLE Irving/Waiters 32.5
17. MIN Rubio/Martin 32.5
18. DET Jennings/Stuckey 32.5
19. SAC Thomas/Thornton 31.9
20. CHA Walker/Henderson 31.7
21. OKL Westbrook/Sefolusha 31.5
22. UTA Burke/Hayward 31.4
23. IND Hill/Stephenson 30.0
24. ATL Teague/Korver 30.0
25. PHI Williams/Anderson 28.8
26. MIL Knight/Mayo 27.0
27. LAL Blake/Bryant 24.5
28. CHI Rose/Butler 23.0
29. NYK Felton/Shumpert 22.6
30. BOS Rondo/Bradley 17.6

Ball Don't Lie 01-30-2014 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever (Post 861596)
In light of a fantastic start to 2014 by DD I figured I'd throw this out there to hear some opinions.

Here are the top 25 scorers in the league at the SG position right now. Yes, I realize that not everything is about scoring but it's an easy way to compile the best players at the position for the most part.

1. Harden
2. Derozan
3. Afflalo
4. Ellis
5. Dragic (not sure why he's listed as a SG)
6. Martin
7. Thompson
8. Crawford (Jamal)
9. Hayward
10. Matthews
11. Gordon
12. Johnson
13. Henderson
14. Meeks
15. Waiters
16. Stephenson
17. Oladipo
18. Green
19. Crawford (Jordan)
20. Mayo
21. Manu
22. Korver
23. VC
24. Bellinelli
25. Foye

+ Butler, Kobe & Wade (missing from the list due to injuries)


IMO Kobe, Wade and Harden (and a totally healthy Manu) are obviously at the head of the class... but after those 3... I'm not sure that there's another guy on that list that I'd want over DD (fine, so maybe I'm a homer). Stephenson, Hayward and Afflalo would be his direct competition for spots #4 and #5 I think....

Thoughts? Where do you think he ranks?


I think Harden, Ellis, Afflalo, Stephenson, Bryant, Thompson, and Matthews are better players than Demar currently. I didn't include Dragic and Hayward, who are also better than Demar, but aren't really SG's.

Bankiz 01-30-2014 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ball Don't Lie (Post 861604)
I think Harden, Ellis, Afflalo, Stephenson, Bryant, Thompson, and Matthews are better players than Demar currently. I didn't include Dragic and Hayward, who are also better than Demar, but aren't really SG's.

Harden, yes of course.
Ellis is past is prime, and don't defend more than DD.
Afflalo, i think he is at the same mevel as DD. maybe he was a better defender at one time, but not too much difference ight now.
ok, how thompson is better than DD ? the only good thing about thompson is his 3pt shooting. and if curry don't open the floor for him to shoot what do you have ?
stephenson, i heard he was more of a SF than a sg. at 6'8 it's not surprising, even if he play the position of SG. the fact is that indy as 3 good SF 'PG, LS, DG) but yeah, he has a more impact on team resultat than DD.
Matthews has a pretty good year and i would say he is better than DD.
Bryant, for sure he is better. like Jordan is still better than DD i suppose.
as for dragic, PHX play two pg in their starter unit like us yesterday. it don't make vasuqez a sg.
Hayward is good but at 6"8.5 the guy is a sf. he play PF at college level.


just fair to say that DD is a top 5 not the best, just that he is a top 5, even if you put him as the 5th.
he is with Harden the only sg whom made it in the MVP ladder this season. so i think is PIE was pretty good at that time.

so here is my top 5 at this time of the season :
1. Harden
2. Stephenson
3. Matthews
4. DD
5. Wade

DanH 01-30-2014 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever (Post 861596)
In light of a fantastic start to 2014 by DD I figured I'd throw this out there to hear some opinions.

Here are the top 25 scorers in the league at the SG position right now. Yes, I realize that not everything is about scoring but it's an easy way to compile the best players at the position for the most part.

1. Harden
2. Derozan
3. Afflalo
4. Ellis
5. Dragic (not sure why he's listed as a SG)
6. Martin
7. Thompson
8. Crawford (Jamal)
9. Hayward
10. Matthews
11. Gordon
12. Johnson
13. Henderson
14. Meeks
15. Waiters
16. Stephenson
17. Oladipo
18. Green
19. Crawford (Jordan)
20. Mayo
21. Manu
22. Korver
23. VC
24. Bellinelli
25. Foye

+ Butler, Kobe & Wade (missing from the list due to injuries)


IMO Kobe, Wade and Harden (and a totally healthy Manu) are obviously at the head of the class... but after those 3... I'm not sure that there's another guy on that list that I'd want over DD (fine, so maybe I'm a homer). Stephenson, Hayward and Afflalo would be his direct competition for spots #4 and #5 I think....

Thoughts? Where do you think he ranks?

PPG is certainly an easy way to rank players. So is MPG, or fouls per game. Doesn't mean there's any validity to it.

DD ranks 6th in SG PER (which rewards volume shooters), 37th is TS%, 22nd in rebound rate, and 45th in assist rate.

I agree with Stephenson Afflalo and Hayward over DD. That's probably roughly where I'd place him, 7th (although frankly I'd rather have T Ross at the 2 considering his contract situation). Purely in terms of ability, DD's probably top 10 SG in the league. The issue is fit, role, and the overall weakness of the position league wide - top 10 doesn't mean that much any more, looking at that list.

bjjs 01-30-2014 10:31 AM

Stephenson is a role player, albeit on the best team in the league.

Afflalo is a role player currently moonlighting as a number one option on one of the worst teams in the league.

Hayward is similar to Derozan,

Comparing ppg to mpg is like comparing touchdown passes to snaps taken.

PPG is still as good a metric as any for offensive minded shooting guards.

DanH 01-30-2014 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjs (Post 861628)
PPG is still as good a metric as any for offensive minded shooting guards.

Aaaaaand we can no longer discuss things. No common ground. That's crazy talk.

bjjs 01-30-2014 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 861651)
Aaaaaand we can no longer discuss things.

There is definitely common ground, but you would need to hop off your statistical high horse for a conversation to be possible.

Tommy C 01-30-2014 12:46 PM

Top 5 or not, I don't see MU landing here a better SG than DD. Not gonna happen anytime soon.

jeffb 01-30-2014 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy C (Post 861654)
Top 5 or not, I don't see MU landing here a better SG than DD. Not gonna happen anytime soon.

I have a feeling TR could be better in a couple years. At the very least he's a better two player + shooter. If i had a choice right now on trading one of them it would be Derozan. Not sure long term if either can play SF full time.

Tommy C 01-30-2014 12:51 PM

TR has more potential and he is a better 3 pt shooter. I tend to like his style better as he is quicker and more explosive. He has to bulk up though, he is paper thin and cannot handle stronger players at the 3 spot.

thought 01-30-2014 01:16 PM

From what I've seen recently out of Ross on the defensive end, I have no doubt in my mind that he can be an elite 3 and D guy. Long-term he I think he definitely projects to be a better fit with Lowry than DeRozan does, because their skillsets complement each other better.

Tommy C 01-30-2014 01:20 PM

Ross has to improve his mid range and I would like to see him going more often to the rim. I am not crazy about how he parks on the 3 pt line and waiting for a pass most of the time.

jeffb 01-30-2014 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy C (Post 861663)
Ross has to improve his mid range and I would like to see him going more often to the rim. I am not crazy about how he parks on the 3 pt line and waiting for a pass most of the time.

I'm enjoying seeing him more and more moving/cutting without the ball, getting in the lane and making passes inside to the bigs. He's just starting to get consistent minutes rather then coming in here and there as a spot up shooter. He is just starting to spread his wings and is far from a finished product.

niggles 01-30-2014 01:26 PM

Why isn't Beal in this discussion? He's top 5.

Ball Don't Lie 01-30-2014 01:30 PM

I also forgot Wade on my list, because he wasn't listed in the OP. So DD is 9th on my list. Beal is close too, but he still has a lot to prove. He's had an underwhelming year overall, despite his stellar play recently.

woodchuck 01-30-2014 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanH (Post 861626)
the overall weakness of the position league wide - top 10 doesn't mean that much any more, looking at that list.

Yes. Even no.1 doesn't mean as much, looking back. 10 years ago, prime Kobe, Wade, Ray Allen, Vince, Iverson, Manu, T-Mac. Now it's Harden and semi-washed up Wade. They arguably wouldn't make top 5 back then.

DanH 01-30-2014 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjjs (Post 861653)
There is definitely common ground, but you would need to hop off your statistical high horse for a conversation to be possible.

Assume a scenario where there is a bad team, with a bad coach, who lets his players do whatever they want. One player takes 60 shots every game and scores 40 points off of them. Clearly he is the best scorer in the league at his position with his 40 PPG.

That is the extreme. But each of the parameters in that example are true in many cases to some degree - PPG is driven by minutes played and shot allocation, neither of which are doled out fairly or equally around the league. There are cases all the time of players getting less or more minutes than they should be, and definitely cases of the same with shot opportunities.

I take it you are of the opinion that Rudy Gay was the 9th best scoring forward (SF and PF) in the entire league while he played for TOR this year? You really must be, to hold your position that PPG is as good as any other measure to determine quality of scorer. Certainly a better scorer than Tim Duncan, David Lee, Paul Millsap at the very least.

woodchuck 01-30-2014 01:51 PM

Besides Wade, 3 players that should be somewhere on these lists, and I don't see them - JJ Redick, Avery Bradley, Jimmy Butler.

I guess Butler gets ranked at SF? Which is fair enough, although he has played more SG so far in his career.

Bradley probably gets ranked at PG. But he's a black hole, and he does a good job defending anyone 6'7 220 pounds and under. So he's a SG. If I remember correctly, Terrence Ross was guarding him when the Raptors played them a few weeks ago. And he was guarding DeMar. A nice player. His midrange jumper has become really good. He uses it a bit too much and passes too little, but overall he's the type of player that a contender would love to have.


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