Demar Derozan: Top 5 SG league-wide? - Page 4
Old 02-02-2014, 05:16 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I'm arguing because it's utter nonsense. His last 10 games with Gay were brilliant.
What was our record for the 10 game stretch you're talking about?

Let's assume he's not top 5 SG in the league. Our record is 25-22.

Let's assume he is a top 5 SG in the league. Our record is 25-22

Whether he is or isn't doesn't impact our record, so I'm trying to judge what we're debating here, other than individual poster's opinions.
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Old 02-02-2014, 05:22 PM   #62 (permalink)
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What was our record for the 10 game stretch you're talking about?

Let's assume he's not top 5 SG in the league. Our record is 25-22.

Let's assume he is a top 5 SG in the league. Our record is 25-22

Whether he is or isn't doesn't impact our record, so I'm trying to judge what we're debating here, other than individual poster's opinions.
We were talking about DeMar's PER. When did his individual numbers start improving.

I guess we should've done it in a separate thread, since it's a bit off topic here.
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:09 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Ross is better tho
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:39 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Ross is better tho
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Old 02-02-2014, 07:48 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Well, you can't just ignore scoring efficiency just because you choose to. Yes, he's been inconsistent. Check his last 10 games, compare to the 10 games before that. Then 10 games before that. "But he's been consistent at this and this and this". What kind of argument is that. You have to look at the whole picture.
Hello irony.

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He improved rebounding and passing but is still nowhere near elite in those areas so you can't really bring it up as a strength
And defense? Your crush for DD is obvious ,but come on now..
DD's numbers for January are almost in line with Harden's... who would appear to be the best SG in the league right now. May not be "elite"... but that pretty good IMO.

As for DD's D... never claimed that it was awesome.... only that he's improved that part of his game.

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We were talking about DeMar's PER. When did his individual numbers start improving.

I guess we should've done it in a separate thread, since it's a bit off topic here.
I'm confused now... because if we're simply talking about PER then Demar IS a top 5 SG based on that stat alone (4th if you take out Dragic).
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:35 PM   #66 (permalink)
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His best stretch of basketball this year was next to Rudy Gay. Those 10 games prior to the trade, where he was averaging 24-25 points with high efficiency. Before and after, he's been inconsistent and overall inefficient.
Cliffs notes; I assume we were talking about this, or I was and that his PER started climbing when Gay left ^^

I contend DD is playing better (and that his PER is higher which reflects it) without Rudy. He disagrees and thinks that he's not as good without Gay and outside those 10 games he's been inefficient. Nobody is arguing that he had a good 10 game stretch, just that its 10 games... yes, irony.

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Old 02-03-2014, 08:29 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Hello irony.

DD's numbers for January are almost in line with Harden's... who would appear to be the best SG in the league right now. May not be "elite"... but that pretty good IMO.

As for DD's D... never claimed that it was awesome.... only that he's improved that part of his game.

I'm confused now... because if we're simply talking about PER then Demar IS a top 5 SG based on that stat alone (4th if you take out Dragic).
Yes, it is pretty ironic. It's like talking to a wall, or to one of those Kobe fanboys who didn't see enough Kobe love in some sentence, so they take it out of context and stubbornly repeat the same thing over and over again.

There were two different conversations here. One was about DeMar as a top 5 SG. I made 1 post about it in this thread.

The other one was a reply to JoeyJoJo Shabbadu about DeMar's numbers; it was a simple point that outside of the first 8 games of the season, DeMar was great next to Gay. So, ding ding, maybe the notion that his individual numbers would've sucked next to Gay isn't very well substantiated.
This PER conversation had nothing to do with DeMar being or not being a top 5 SG. So yes, as you say, you are confused. But what can I do, I've explained that these are different subjects multiple times and you are still confused.
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Old 02-03-2014, 08:39 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Cliffs notes; I assume we were talking about this, or I was and that his PER started climbing when Gay left ^^

I contend DD is playing better (and that his PER is higher which reflects it) without Rudy. He disagrees and thinks that he's not as good without Gay and outside those 10 games he's been inefficient. Nobody is arguing that he had a good 10 game stretch, just that its 10 games... yes, irony.
Hehe. DeMar and Gay played 18 games together. In other words, you dismiss the 10 game sample because it's "just 10 games" and focus on the first 8 terrible games instead. Did you say irony?

Anyway, I've spent too much time talking about PER of all things here. I don't know how someone can argue that DeMar's numbers started to improve long before the Gay trade. But whatever floats your boat, I guess. If you want to focus on 8 bad games, so be it.
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Old 02-03-2014, 12:34 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Hehe. DeMar and Gay played 18 games together. In other words, you dismiss the 10 game sample because it's "just 10 games" and focus on the first 8 terrible games instead. Did you say irony?

Anyway, I've spent too much time talking about PER of all things here. I don't know how someone can argue that DeMar's numbers started to improve long before the Gay trade. But whatever floats your boat, I guess. If you want to focus on 8 bad games, so be it.
Yes I included all games with Gay vs games that weren't. There's nothing ironic about it. That's the largest sample size and not just picking and choosing. I'm not focusing on 8 games, its 18. You are focused on 10. Your post is complete hypocrisy.

I refuse to argue the mathematical concept of variance or even PER with you anymore. The bottom line is you contend he was better when playing with Rudy Gay and that he's an inefficient player without him. He wasn't and neither was the team.
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Old 02-03-2014, 02:17 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Yes I included all games with Gay vs games that weren't. There's nothing ironic about it. That's the largest sample size and not just picking and choosing. I'm not focusing on 8 games, its 18. You are focused on 10. Your post is complete hypocrisy.

I refuse to argue the mathematical concept of variance or even PER with you anymore. The bottom line is you contend he was better when playing with Rudy Gay and that he's an inefficient player without him. He wasn't and neither was the team.
You said DeMar's numbers started improving after the Gay trade. I said they started improving much earlier. You "picked and chose" the date of Gay's trade. I "picked and chose" an earlier date. There's nothing more "mathematical" and correct about your choice.

Re second bolded, that's not what I said. I kind of wonder if you genuinely don't understand it, or if it's just a weird pretend game.
I was talking about when DeMar's numbers picked up. I pointed that it started happening long before the Gay trade. Numbers wise, it was arguably DeMar's best stretch, although there's a good case to be made that his current stretch of 10-15 games is at around the same level.
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:10 PM   #71 (permalink)
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You said DeMar's numbers started improving after the Gay trade. I said they started improving much earlier. You "picked and chose" the date of Gay's trade. I "picked and chose" an earlier date. There's nothing more "mathematical" and correct about your choice.

Re second bolded, that's not what I said. I kind of wonder if you genuinely don't understand it, or if it's just a weird pretend game.
I was talking about when DeMar's numbers picked up. I pointed that it started happening long before the Gay trade. Numbers wise, it was arguably DeMar's best stretch, although there's a good case to be made that his current stretch of 10-15 games is at around the same level.
Gee... sounds like EXACTLY what I said about 2 pages ago.

Does this make you a confused fanboy too?
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:14 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Gee... sounds like EXACTLY what I said about 2 pages ago.

Does this make you a confused fanboy too?
Meh, none of you mention TR in the same breath as Jordan.
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:30 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Gee... sounds like EXACTLY what I said about 2 pages ago.

Does this make you a confused fanboy too?
and this is what I said in reply to you

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Well, we can discuss if it was THE best stretch or one of several best stretches, but either way it would be tough to argue that Gay screwed his numbers up.
I.e., the same thing that you just bolded. So, why are you confused?

See, the problem is that you keep misunderstanding the discussion.
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:35 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Gee... sounds like EXACTLY what I said about 2 pages ago.

Does this make you a confused fanboy too?
Lol^^^

Seriously... someone just poke my eyes out it would be easier.
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Old 02-03-2014, 03:38 PM   #75 (permalink)
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DD's numbers for January are almost in line with Harden's... who would appear to be the best SG in the league right now. May not be "elite"... but that pretty good IMO.
His scoring numbers are good, I am not arguing about that. What I don't agree is that you bring up the rebounding, assists and defense as his strengths

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As for DD's D... never claimed that it was awesome.... only that he's improved that part of his game.
this seems like a claim that he is good in those areas of the game:

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Sounds like you're judging him by his FG% alone when that's only a small part of his overall game. The rebounding... the defense... the assists... the FTAs... the varied methods of scoring.... has he been "inconsistent" in any of those areas this season? Because I sure don't think so.
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Old 02-03-2014, 04:10 PM   #76 (permalink)
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See, the problem is that you keep misunderstanding the discussion.
If you say so. I realize (and have stated) that DD's FG% with Gay here SHOULD be better since Gay often drew the opposing team's toughest defender.

What I took issue with is your assertion that DD has been "inconsistent" outside of the 10 games that you cherry picked off the schedule.

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His scoring numbers are good, I am not arguing about that. What I don't agree is that you bring up the rebounding, assists and defense as his strengths

this seems like a claim that he is good in those areas of the game:
You misunderstood then.... or perhaps I just wasn't clear.

DD's defense isn't elite or even exemplary... but it IS getting better and I don't think that he's a liability on that end of the floor. You have to remember that he's also asked to do A LOT here for this team on the offensive end. It's very tough for a player to dominate on both ends of the floor like that. Same arguments that some people used to bring up about Bosh and I said the same thing back then.

As for his rebounding and passing (and FTAs)... yes, those are getting better too and those stats are actually starting to raise him into elite company for his position.
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Old 02-03-2014, 04:33 PM   #77 (permalink)
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If you say so. I realize (and have stated) that DD's FG% with Gay here SHOULD be better since Gay often drew the opposing team's toughest defender.

What I took issue with is your assertion that DD has been "inconsistent" outside of the 10 games that you cherry picked off the schedule.
Also, I think you might be referring to your post about the 14 games after the trade. I'm talking the most recent games. He's playing significantly better right now than he was right after the trade.

Anyway, that's what I mean about inconsistency. There are significant ups and downs. I can post stat lines from 10 or 14 or whatever games after trade vs. recent stretch, if necessary. But I think there's no point, since basketball reference makes it ridiculously easy to compare streaks by just clicking on dates.
Now, are there good reasons for those ups and downs? Why not, I guess. It takes time for players to adjust to a new role. It's understandable. But if I'm replying to someone who claims that these numbers kept going up since trade, why wouldn't I mention these ups and downs. They are there. It's not as simple as "Gay traded -- DeMar's stats much better."

"He's been inconsistent" or "he's been overall inefficient" (compared to that pre-trade stretch) does not mean he sucked. And it doesn't mean he didn't have other good stretches. To the opposite, that's what inconsistent season means by definition. You can't be inconsistent if it's all bad.
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Old 02-03-2014, 04:55 PM   #78 (permalink)
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DeMar DeRozan: 36 points (14-29 FG, 2-4 3FG, 6-9 FT), 12 assists, 4 rebounds, 3 turnovers, 1 block ó The first-time All-Star made up for a lackluster first half by pulling off an accomplishment that we havenít seen in 10 years. According to Elias, DeRozan is the first player in a decade to rack up 30 points and 10 assists in a half.

I'll keep our guy thanks ... he's fair value.
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:01 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Also, I think you might be referring to your post about the 14 games after the trade. I'm talking the most recent games. He's playing significantly better right now than he was right after the trade.

Anyway, that's what I mean about inconsistency. There are significant ups and downs. I can post stat lines from 10 or 14 or whatever games after trade vs. recent stretch, if necessary. But I think there's no point, since basketball reference makes it ridiculously easy to compare streaks by just clicking on dates.
Now, are there good reasons for those ups and downs? Why not, I guess. It takes time for players to adjust to a new role. It's understandable. But if I'm replying to someone who claims that these numbers kept going up since trade, why wouldn't I mention these ups and downs. They are there. It's not as simple as "Gay traded -- DeMar's stats much better."

"He's been inconsistent" or "he's been overall inefficient" (compared to that pre-trade stretch) does not mean he sucked. And it doesn't mean he didn't have other good stretches. To the opposite, that's what inconsistent season means by definition. You can't be inconsistent if it's all bad.
*shrug* Maybe we simply have different opinions of "inconsistent".

Ross has been inconsistent.

Jimmy Butler (CHI) has been inconsistent.

For the most part you know what you're going to get from DD on a nightly basis.
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Old 02-03-2014, 06:41 PM   #80 (permalink)
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