Demar Derozan: Top 5 SG league-wide? - Page 3
Old 02-01-2014, 12:21 AM   #41 (permalink)
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The numbers I see:

Last 10 games before the trade
24.2 pts, 3.9 rebounds, 2.7 assists, 49.2% FG, 42.9% 3pt, 58.7% TS

First 14 games without Rudy
20.7 pts, 5.1 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 41.5% FG, 18.4% 3pt, 49.9% TS
So it took him some time to adjust to being the focal point of the defense without Rudy there.

His numbers for the month of January look fine to me.

Joe Johnson is "inconsistent".

Demar Derozan is not (anymore).
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Old 02-01-2014, 12:50 AM   #42 (permalink)
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His best stretch of basketball this year was next to Rudy Gay. Those 10 games prior to the trade, where he was averaging 24-25 points with high efficiency. Before and after, he's been inconsistent and overall inefficient.
His per was NOT +-18 earlier this year and rebounds assists and every other part of his game improved and the shooting is similar but he gets to the line more.
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Old 02-01-2014, 06:20 AM   #43 (permalink)
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So it took him some time to adjust to being the focal point of the defense without Rudy there.

His numbers for the month of January look fine to me.

Joe Johnson is "inconsistent".

Demar Derozan is not (anymore).
He had a very up and down year. I.e., inconsistent. Go stretch by stretch, 10 games after 10 games. Stark differences. The best stretch was at the end of Rudy Gay's tenure here, which was the point.

I think you are being a tad too defensive towards DeMar, aren't you.

I'm not criticizing him as a player right now. I'm debating against the notion that his numbers couldn't be good with Gay.
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Old 02-01-2014, 06:27 AM   #44 (permalink)
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His per was NOT +-18 earlier this year and rebounds assists and every other part of his game improved and the shooting is similar but he gets to the line more.
His shooting numbers aren't similar. He was by far more efficient during those last 10 games with Rudy. Which is to be expected. It's hard to carry the load he's carrying right now, have more defensive attention on you, and stay as efficient.
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Old 02-01-2014, 07:55 PM   #45 (permalink)
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He had a very up and down year. I.e., inconsistent. Go stretch by stretch, 10 games after 10 games. Stark differences. The best stretch was at the end of Rudy Gay's tenure here, which was the point.

I think you are being a tad too defensive towards DeMar, aren't you.

I'm not criticizing him as a player right now. I'm debating against the notion that his numbers couldn't be good with Gay.
You were talking about other teams being impressed with what DD did along side Gay. I agree that his stats over that 10 game stretch were impressive. I'd also suggest that teams would be equally impressed with his game WITHOUT Gay here as the #1 option. His game as a whole has grown over this season. He's no longer a one-dimensional player.

The higher rebounds and assists more than offset the hit to his FG% IMO.
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:28 PM   #46 (permalink)
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You were talking about other teams being impressed with what DD did along side Gay. I agree that his stats over that 10 game stretch were impressive. I'd also suggest that teams would be equally impressed with his game WITHOUT Gay here as the #1 option. His game as a whole has grown over this season. He's no longer a one-dimensional player.

The higher rebounds and assists more than offset the hit to his FG% IMO.
Hmm, no, we weren't talking about teams being impressed. You are confusing something here. We were talking if Gay screwed his numbers up or not.

My reply was that DeMar had his best stretch next to Gay, before the trade. He struggled out of the gate for a couple weeks, then he figured it out. Well, we can discuss if it was THE best stretch or one of several best stretches, but either way it would be tough to argue that Gay screwed his numbers up.
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Old 02-01-2014, 09:33 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Hmm, no, we weren't talking about teams being impressed. You are confusing something here. We were talking if Gay screwed his numbers up or not.

My reply was that DeMar had his best stretch next to Gay, before the trade. He struggled out of the gate for a couple weeks, then he figured it out. Well, we can discuss if it was THE best stretch or one of several best stretches, but either way it would be tough to argue that Gay screwed his numbers up.
You were saying that he shouldn't be considered a top 5 SG unless he can consistently put up the numbers that he did over that 10 game stretch with Gay.

I maintain that he CAN be ranked that high based on his play both WITH Gay AND without him this season.
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Old 02-01-2014, 10:47 PM   #48 (permalink)
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You were saying that he shouldn't be considered a top 5 SG unless he can consistently put up the numbers that he did over that 10 game stretch with Gay.

I maintain that he CAN be ranked that high based on his play both WITH Gay AND without him this season.
Well, first of all, you have to quote the post you are replying to. That was days ago and you've been quoting posts where we were talking about how Gay affected DeMar's numbers. A different subject.

Now onto that post, it had nothing to do with teams being impressed or not.
I was talking about DeMar's value on a contender. Assume the Raptors improve. They would have more offensive weapons. Volume inefficient scoring won't be as valuable. But scoring at high efficiency -- like that DeMar's pre-trade stretch -- will be very valuable. It's common sense.
It's a question of ability. If we think DeMar can adjust to such a smaller role on a contender and reproduce something similar to that pre-trade stretch, then he's in my view a top 5 SG.

To me, that's the only way to rank players. Their value on a contender. If someone wants to rank them by PER or PPG some other stat, fine, but to me that wouldn't make much sense. Jerry Stackhouse was averaging 30 inefficient points once and had a nice PER, does that mean he was one of the best? He never actually showed an ability to be an efficient scorer on a good team.

DeMar has shown some signs this year that he might be able to do very well as a second option. That's not criticism, I'm not sure why you insist on seeing it that way.
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Old 02-02-2014, 01:55 AM   #49 (permalink)
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His best stretch of basketball this year was next to Rudy Gay. Those 10 games prior to the trade, where he was averaging 24-25 points with high efficiency. Before and after, he's been inconsistent and overall inefficient.
This was the post that I've been responding to this whole time. The bold in particular. Sounds like you're judging him by his FG% alone when that's only a small part of his overall game. The rebounding... the defense... the assists... the FTAs... the varied methods of scoring.... has he been "inconsistent" in any of those areas this season? Because I sure don't think so.
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Old 02-02-2014, 02:47 AM   #50 (permalink)
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His shooting numbers aren't similar. He was by far more efficient during those last 10 games with Rudy. Which is to be expected. It's hard to carry the load he's carrying right now, have more defensive attention on you, and stay as efficient.
Yes they are you nut. The 2nd part is about the most ridiculous comment ever. Michael Jordan. About his play and PER part, he has improved. Thats what the discussion was about. you keep talking about FG% but he's a better player period.

The fact that you call him inefficeint is ridic. you dont even watch.

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Old 02-02-2014, 09:20 AM   #51 (permalink)
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This was the post that I've been responding to this whole time. The bold in particular. Sounds like you're judging him by his FG% alone when that's only a small part of his overall game. The rebounding... the defense... the assists... the FTAs... the varied methods of scoring.... has he been "inconsistent" in any of those areas this season? Because I sure don't think so.
Well, you can't just ignore scoring efficiency just because you choose to. Yes, he's been inconsistent. Check his last 10 games, compare to the 10 games before that. Then 10 games before that. "But he's been consistent at this and this and this". What kind of argument is that. You have to look at the whole picture.
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:28 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Yes they are you nut. The 2nd part is about the most ridiculous comment ever. Michael Jordan. About his play and PER part, he has improved. Thats what the discussion was about. you keep talking about FG% but he's a better player period.

The fact that you call him inefficeint is ridic. you dont even watch.
The question is when did his PER start improving. As for Michael Jordan, come on.

In general, you should calm down. You are acting like a petulant child right now. Although I guess that's not new.
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Old 02-02-2014, 09:38 AM   #53 (permalink)
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So who's his competition here?

Wade and Harden are clearly better. Curry is better if you consider him a shooting guard.(he is pg/sg in some fantasy leagues) Monta Ellis has had the better career so far, and that seems like a fairly apt comparison. Right now I would say those two are quite close to each other in talent and performance. The Mavs would certainly be where we are or better in the East with him as 1b. Afflalo is moonlighting as a #1 scorer, Paul George isn't considered a shooting guard anymore apparently. Some people would argue Wesley Matthews, but I don't think he could stand up to being the #1-2 option. Is Eric Bledsoe a shooting guard?

It's very hard to say for sure if he's top 5 and it won't be for several years. What I can say is he is absolutely a top 8 shooting guard, and that's pretty damn good for 9.5 per.
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Old 02-02-2014, 01:52 PM   #54 (permalink)
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The question is when did his PER start improving.
His PER started improving when Gay left. Period. He's better now than when Gay was here. So is the team.

NBA Stats

I can't find PER splits, but here's monthly splits (above) and rebounding, assists, usage, ppg, fta all improved. fg% is roughly the same. The only place he's not better is from 3. His PER is better, his play is better and his efficiency is almost the same.

So we have a guy playing his ass off, playing hurt, gets selected to the ASG, we're winnning. Not sure why you continue the argument that he's inefficient.
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Old 02-02-2014, 01:59 PM   #55 (permalink)
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His PER started improving when Gay left. Period.
I'm arguing because it's utter nonsense. His last 10 games with Gay were brilliant.
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Old 02-02-2014, 03:04 PM   #56 (permalink)
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This was the post that I've been responding to this whole time. The bold in particular. Sounds like you're judging him by his FG% alone when that's only a small part of his overall game. The rebounding... the defense... the assists... the FTAs... the varied methods of scoring.... has he been "inconsistent" in any of those areas this season? Because I sure don't think so.

He improved rebounding and passing but is still nowhere near elite in those areas so you can't really bring it up as a strength
And defense? Your crush for DD is obvious ,but come on now..
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Old 02-02-2014, 04:33 PM   #57 (permalink)
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He improved rebounding and passing but is still nowhere near elite in those areas so you can't really bring it up as a strength
And defense? Your crush for DD is obvious ,but come on now..
Well said. Not to mention his FG%, 3PT%, eFG%, and TS% could all be a lot better. His d has improved this season but not to a degree where it's a strength of his.
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Old 02-02-2014, 05:45 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I am not DD's biggest fan, but he has improved every season he's been in the league. No reason to think he won't continue to improve.
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:00 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I am not DD's biggest fan, but he has improved every season he's been in the league. No reason to think he won't continue to improve.
agreed. I've shit on him in the past, but he's finally showing something more as a defender, and a passer.
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Old 02-02-2014, 06:06 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I am not DD's biggest fan, but he has improved every season he's been in the league. No reason to think he won't continue to improve.
last year, statistically he has improved very little. I know because without checking the stats, I subjectively felt a big improvement (i.e. the eye test), but DanH pointed out that stats wise he was pretty flat when accounting for the mpg increase.

this year is by far the biggest jump he's made in his career. However, I would argue that part of the jump is the work he put the previous summer. I saw a completely different demar last season, even though his stats didnt' reflect that.

and it's encouraging to see he is improving defensively, he's far more active on the perimeter. Hopefully, one day he'll get to the point where he can defend his position at a better than average clip.
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