Demar Derozan or Jimmy Butler? - Page 2
Old 12-22-2013, 10:08 PM   #21 (permalink)
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i feel that if dro isnt an allstar this year he'll be one next..i dont know a lot about butler being more than an average guy, maybe when chicago talks about more than rose i'll hear more about him
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Old 12-22-2013, 10:15 PM   #22 (permalink)
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You guys honestly believe that Bosh has gotten WORSE since going to MIA?

Wow.
It is a popular and correct opinion.

He has taken a few steps down rebounding-wise and his post game is nothing like it was when he was here. Sure he's improved his 3pt shot but he's still not a guy you want taking that shot.



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Fair enough. I still point to the sample size when it comes to Butler though. Bruce Bowen was a tough defender who could hit shots.... but would he excel as much as he did if he had been asked to score 20/night as well?

We'll see how things go for Butler. Maybe he'll prove me wrong.
Like I said before, ask DeRozan to be a tough defender and hit shots and he won't excel either. Using that logic, force LeBron to be a spot up shooter and his effectiveness all but vanishes. Comparing players, you should look at what they do now in their role, not what you assume they can do in another role.
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Old 12-22-2013, 10:20 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Bosh hasn't gotten worse since he moved to MIA, his usage rate has just gone way down, as if you watch a Miami game, you maybe see him get the ball in an isolation scenario once or twice maximum per game, which resulted in at least half of his points when he was our primary player. Now he's essentially just a high post pick and pop player, and finisher when Lebron penetrates.

His defence looks better now, but it's hard to judge how good he really is defensively since Miami runs such a different style of defence than the rest of the NBA, which really suits Bosh because he's mobile and quick enough to trap ball handlers and recover. But to Koolaids point which is a very valid one, he's able to play such good high energy defence because his usage rate on offence is down so much.

Going back to the original topic, did bjjs really just say:

Quote:
Derozan staying as a top 15 scorer in the league
Did you mean just by PPG? Because there's a lot more than 15 better scorers in the league when you actually factor in efficiency and a players offence leading to wins.
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Old 12-22-2013, 10:23 PM   #24 (permalink)
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It is a popular and correct opinion.

He has taken a few steps down rebounding-wise and his post game is nothing like it was when he was here. Sure he's improved his 3pt shot but he's still not a guy you want taking that shot.
His rebounding numbers have dropped because he plays with 2 of the best rebounding wing players in the league in Wade and Lebron.

He doesn't post up because MIA's offense doesn't require him to (he needs to space the floor to open up the lane for the other 2).

The Heat have trusted him to take (and make) the 3 point shot in several games this season... and he's canned them in the clutch.

Might be a popular opinion but it's certainly not the correct one. Just look at any stretch of games where Wade has sat out. Bosh has always stepped up his game to fill the void and his "Toronto game" peeks out a bit more.
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Old 12-22-2013, 10:35 PM   #25 (permalink)
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His rebounding numbers have dropped because he plays with 2 of the best rebounding wing players in the league in Wade and Lebron.

He doesn't post up because MIA's offense doesn't require him to (he needs to space the floor to open up the lane for the other 2).

The Heat have trusted him to take (and make) the 3 point shot in several games this season... and he's canned them in the clutch.

Might be a popular opinion but it's certainly not the correct one. Just look at any stretch of games where Wade has sat out. Bosh has always stepped up his game to fill the void and his "Toronto game" peeks out a bit more.
Wade and LeBron are also 2 of the best passing wings, doesn't mean he scores more because of it (because he doesn't).

Under certain circumstances, he plays like he did here, but he is just not used enough to the point where I think you can say he's better than he was.He simply doesn't produce as much any more, whether it's because he's on the Heat or not, you can't call him a top 5 PF, which he was while he was here, just because you know he can score. He has to consistently do it to be deserving of that reputation.
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Old 12-22-2013, 10:57 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Wade and LeBron are also 2 of the best passing wings, doesn't mean he scores more because of it (because he doesn't).

Under certain circumstances, he plays like he did here, but he is just not used enough to the point where I think you can say he's better than he was.He simply doesn't produce as much any more, whether it's because he's on the Heat or not, you can't call him a top 5 PF, which he was while he was here, just because you know he can score. He has to consistently do it to be deserving of that reputation.
And as BDL said... that has to do more with his usage rate than anything else. If he was shooting 40% now on less touches then I could agree.... but when his efficiency has stayed the same or gone UP... I just don't see any drop off. Particularly when you look at what he's done in the playoffs these past 3 seasons (and in big reg season games).
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:00 PM   #27 (permalink)
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One thing that Bosh has no excuse for is his rebounding numbers though. He's been a very soft rebounder the past 2 years. There's no excuse for him averaging 6 rebounds per game this year.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:17 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Going back to the original topic, did bjjs really just say:



Did you mean just by PPG? Because there's a lot more than 15 better scorers in the league when you actually factor in efficiency and a players offence leading to wins.
I chose ppg as my measuring stick and I standby it. PPG is still king. Tried and true.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:19 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I chose ppg as my measuring stick and I standby it. PPG is still king. Tried and true.
Really? So - FGs Made/attempted, FG%, eFG%, TS%, Orating, etc - they don't matter. Ok.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:21 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Really? So - FGs Made/attempted, FG%, eFG%, TS%, Orating, etc - they don't matter. Ok.
They matter as much as ppg, they don't matter at all.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:22 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I chose ppg as my measuring stick and I standby it. PPG is still king. Tried and true.
you must have loved how gay played this season for us then ...
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:28 PM   #32 (permalink)
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They matter as much as ppg, they don't matter at all.
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you must have loved how gay played this season for us then ...
Yeah I was going to say moremilk
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:28 PM   #33 (permalink)
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And as BDL said... that has to do more with his usage rate than anything else. If he was shooting 40% now on less touches then I could agree.... but when his efficiency has stayed the same or gone UP... I just don't see any drop off. Particularly when you look at what he's done in the playoffs these past 3 seasons (and in big reg season games).
meh, when he was in toronto he was one of the top 20-25 players in the league and I think he even got a 2nd all nba selection at some point. In Miami, he's just content to ride lebron's tail. Put him back in Toronto and maybe he'd be better than he used to be, but that's hypothetical.

Bottom line is, he may be a better player, but he definitely doesn't get any recognition for it. Once upon a time, he was in the discussion for best PF, now he wouldn't get a single vote ... He suits Miami well, I'm sure they'd love him to rebound a bit better ...
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:32 PM   #34 (permalink)
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you must have loved how gay played this season for us then ...
I couldn't stand Rudy Gay, but I'm also smart enough to know that Jimmy Butler won't be getting a max contract any time soon.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:40 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I couldn't stand Rudy Gay, but I'm also smart enough to know that Jimmy Butler won't be getting a max contract any time soon.
I don't understand then how can you dismiss the concept of efficiency so easily? You can't honestly think that scoring 20 points on 20 shots is better than scoring 18 points on 12 shots?

The problem with scorers who get their points on volume is that against good defenses they will implode. If you're not efficient against the average, you will be horrible in the playoffs.

Then, there's also the matter of age. Butler does what he does after 2 years, demar after 2 years was nothing compared to butler. So the ceiling is higher.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:50 PM   #36 (permalink)
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meh, when he was in toronto he was one of the top 20-25 players in the league and I think he even got a 2nd all nba selection at some point. In Miami, he's just content to ride lebron's tail. Put him back in Toronto and maybe he'd be better than he used to be, but that's hypothetical.

Bottom line is, he may be a better player, but he definitely doesn't get any recognition for it. Once upon a time, he was in the discussion for best PF, now he wouldn't get a single vote ... He suits Miami well, I'm sure they'd love him to rebound a bit better ...
He never got any recognition for it when he was tearing it up here.... so it doesn't surprise me that he wouldn't any now. He still has a very diverse skillset that most bigs don't have though.... and he's a proven double-double threat who shoots a great percentage from the floor.

You put him in Aldridge's place on POR and they don't miss a beat.

You put him Boozer's place on CHI and they're still a strong playoff team right now.

You swap him with Griffin in L.A. and the Clips would be a title contender.

You put him on G.S. instead of David Lee and they get better too.

The list goes on.

Love and Dirk are probably the 2 PFs in the game who's contributions he CAN'T replace.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:55 PM   #37 (permalink)
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WOOOO...Aldridge? naw
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Old 12-23-2013, 12:46 AM   #38 (permalink)
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I chose ppg as my measuring stick and I standby it. PPG is still king. Tried and true.
According to you DeMar is the 14th best scorer in the league, better than Wade, Klay Thompson, Dirk, Blake, Monta Ellis, CP3, and Tony Parker.

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Old 12-23-2013, 09:23 AM   #39 (permalink)
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According to you DeMar is the 14th best scorer in the league, better than Wade, Klay Thompson, Dirk, Blake, Monta Ellis, CP3, and Tony Parker.

No, according to me, using ppg as a measuring stick, Demar is a top 15 scorer in the league.

Moremilk. He wasn't 'nothing'. He didn't have 'no shot, no dribble, no defense, no anything'. Fans such as myself saw talent in him and potential. He didn't just turn from garbage to something. It is more likely that perhaps you just aren't that adept at recognizing basketball skill and talent. You need it to fully blossom before you know what you're looking at it.
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Old 12-23-2013, 11:04 AM   #40 (permalink)
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If Butler played in Canada they'd say DeRozan
This.
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