the dead horse

Ugo Ferst · 12-10-2008, 09:05 AM

It's about getting the right player, not the right stats. This is the most beaten horse ever, but ill say it again before tonights game, TJ is the reason we overachieved in the past, his heart, his playing style, him finding guys like Kap way more open looks, creating shots when the offense became stagnent, so plz dont regurgatate Calderon stats like that proves he was better for THIS team.... you see when you run a certain style of basketball, certain type of players are better for you, TJ was so obviously a better fit for our team and style i sometimes want to beat ppl over the head because they cant even catch a glimpse of the truth, he is the big thing we are missing, and 2ndly depth.

**fancylad** · 12-10-2008, 09:23 AM

Yeah - how does that saying go about the dead horse?

I forget.

**INSIDER** · 12-10-2008, 09:30 AM

yeah, good try Ugo......
but i just dont have the anything new to add... its been done.
plus, i'm depressed.
it'll be fun to see TJ again tonight.
hopefully his presence will light a fire under some of our guys and we can get over this hump.

Sick, Wicked and Nasty! · 12-10-2008, 09:32 AM

While I agree with UGo's premise..i dont' want to debate it again either. I am looking forward to watching TJ play tonight. HOpefully the Raps get up for this one. I wonder what the attendance will be like.

Ugo Ferst · 12-10-2008, 09:40 AM

I hear you guys, just figured with TJ coming to town tonight, i'd give my 2 cents on the major reason i feel the Raptors arent progressing as expected.

TORaptor4Ever · 12-10-2008, 10:53 AM

People hated TJ for the same reason that they hated Mike James.

Both were fantastic athletes capable of taking over a game... but their egos were WAY out of whack. Anyone who can't see that is fooling themselves.

If TJ were here now instead of Jose we'd all be lamenting the fact that we gave away one of the best pur PGs in the league and our Asst/TO ratio would be absolutely brutal.... not to mention the plethora of people shouting "TJ WTF ARE YOU DOING?????" in the last 5 min. of every game.

Ugo Ferst · 12-10-2008, 10:59 AM

Again, not many like rehashing this, but i enjoy it on the cusp of the game :P

It's pretty simple Basketball 101 to me, if you have a team full of shooters, you want a PG that can create his own shot, drive and kick.

If you have a team with a Post presence and a Slasher, you want a PG that can make the right decisions, knock down open looks and not turn it over.

Having Kap and Calde on the floor at the sametime is redundant, Calde cant create anything for him, and ppl are wondering why Kap is underused, he needs a penetrating PG to get him those easier looks.

Ill say it one last time, i think Jose is a fine PG, very good, just not for this team.

TORaptor4Ever · 12-10-2008, 11:03 AM

I could be mistaken but I don't believe that the HOU Rockets had any guards that were great slashers and penetrators. They all just spotted up and worked off of Hakeem in the post.

We have TWO great post players here. There's no reason why JK shouldn't be getting a ton of open shots. Part of the problem is that we're consistnetly isolating one big on one side of the floor while EVERYONE else goes to the other side.

No one for Bosh & JO to pass to.

Ugo Ferst · 12-10-2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever

I could be mistaken but I don't believe that the HOU Rockets had any guards that were great slashers and penetrators. They all just spotted up and worked off of Hakeem in the post.

We have TWO great post players here. There's no reason why JK shouldn't be getting a ton of open shots. Part of the problem is that we're consistnetly isolating one big on one side of the floor while EVERYONE else goes to the other side.

No one for Bosh & JO to pass to.

Ahh, so all we need is maybe the greatest C ever?? Ohh in that case, life is good! I thought Kenny Smith and Sam Cassel could get to the rack on occassion aswell, not to mention Drexler?? Good points!

We have two great post players here?? Really? Wow, some ppl believe that?? Bosh isnt really a post player at all, JO is ok in the post with his one back to the basket move going left or right, but far from great, he loves the jumper almost as much as Bosh.

I will agree with the dumb isolation that leaves us stagnent tho, its silly.

MikeToronto · 12-10-2008, 11:08 AM

Can we lock this thread, please?

Ugo Ferst · 12-10-2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeToronto

Can we lock this thread, please?

why, because you dont enjoy it?? others are conversing... perhaps you can just stay out of threads you dont like?

TORaptor4Ever · 12-10-2008, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugo Ferst

Ahh, so all we need is maybe the greatest C ever?? Ohh in that case, life is good! I thought Kenny Smith and Sam Cassel could get to the rack on occassion aswell, not to mention Drexler?? Good points!

We have two great post players here?? Really? Wow, some ppl believe that?? Bosh isnt really a post player at all, JO is ok in the post with his one back to the basket move going left or right, but far from great, he loves the jumper almost as much as Bosh.

I will agree with the dumb isolation that leaves us stagnent tho, its silly.

Lol.. hey all I was saying is that it's possible.

And Kenny Smith and Sam weren't "Chris Paul/Steve Nash type penetrators". Drexler was be he was only there for the second title.

Bosh and JO command a double-team when they're playing well. That's a fact regardless of what you may think of their post games. And if there's a double team then there's an opwn shooter waiting.

Ugo Ferst · 12-10-2008, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever

Lol.. hey all I was saying is that it's possible.

And Kenny Smith and Sam weren't "Chris Paul/Steve Nash type penetrators". Drexler was be he was only there for the second title.

Bosh and JO command a double-team when they're playing well. That's a fact regardless of what you may think of their post games. And if there's a double team then there's an opwn shooter waiting.

Well we obviously have differing opinions on their post games, thats fine. Bosh can demand a double, but it's usually far from the net and he isnt a great passer, i havent seen much passing touch from JO yet either, and our points in the paint prove we are pretty lousy around the net

no easy solutions these days, i dont envy BC.

TORaptor4Ever · 12-10-2008, 11:15 AM

We should be utilizing the "high/low" pass WAY more than we are... have we even SEEN one this season yet? It's a pretty effective way to break zones and double teams far away from the basket.

Sick, Wicked and Nasty! · 12-10-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever

We should be utilizing the "high/low" pass WAY more than we are... have we even SEEN one this season yet? It's a pretty effective way to break zones and double teams far away from the basket.

We did it pretty well in preseason and the first 3 games of the year. Then it stopped

Ugo Ferst · 12-10-2008, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever

We should be utilizing the "high/low" pass WAY more than we are... have we even SEEN one this season yet? It's a pretty effective way to break zones and double teams far away from the basket.

I agree, when we initally got JO i thought the hi/low would be implimented instantly, but ive yet to see it regularly.

TORaptor4Ever · 12-10-2008, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sick, Wicked and Nasty!

We did it pretty well in preseason and the first 3 games of the year. Then it stopped

The first 3 games of the year..... man those seem like EONS ago.. lol... explains why I don't remember.

insight_tor · 12-10-2008, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeToronto

Can we lock this thread, please?

Because of the dead horse or because he makes a point?
Raptors offense is stagnant right now. When we had TJ & Jose, Jose was a nice complementary PG to fill in for TJ (to rest or cool down). Only with Jose, all we get is the best Assists/TOs ratio and a well thought offense everyone knows even the opposite team, but no wins.

MikeToronto · 12-10-2008, 11:41 AM

Because the horse is dead...

Slick94 · 12-10-2008, 11:53 AM

I don't see the purpose of these threads? Sorry TJ lovers, Jose is our point guard. TJ is NOT coming back so theres no point in talking about the "what ifs". He's gone, I know its a soft spot for some of you. Lets talk about something thats actually relevant to our team right now because talking about the past will not accomplish anything. Period.

12-10-2008, 09:05 AM	#1 (permalink)
Ugo Ferst is pounding the rock! Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,312 Representing:	the dead horse It's about getting the right player, not the right stats. This is the most beaten horse ever, but ill say it again before tonights game, TJ is the reason we overachieved in the past, his heart, his playing style, him finding guys like Kap way more open looks, creating shots when the offense became stagnent, so plz dont regurgatate Calderon stats like that proves he was better for THIS team.... you see when you run a certain style of basketball, certain type of players are better for you, TJ was so obviously a better fit for our team and style i sometimes want to beat ppl over the head because they cant even catch a glimpse of the truth, he is the big thing we are missing, and 2ndly depth.

12-10-2008, 10:53 AM	#6 (permalink)
TORaptor4Ever is embracing change Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 15,063 Representing:	People hated TJ for the same reason that they hated Mike James. Both were fantastic athletes capable of taking over a game... but their egos were WAY out of whack. Anyone who can't see that is fooling themselves. If TJ were here now instead of Jose we'd all be lamenting the fact that we gave away one of the best pur PGs in the league and our Asst/TO ratio would be absolutely brutal.... not to mention the plethora of people shouting "TJ WTF ARE YOU DOING?????" in the last 5 min. of every game. Last edited by TORaptor4Ever; 12-10-2008 at 11:00 AM.

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12-10-2008, 09:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
fancylad is travis pickin' nosce te ipsum Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: east side. Posts: 13,822 Representing:	Yeah - how does that saying go about the dead horse? I forget.

12-10-2008, 09:30 AM	#3 (permalink)
INSIDER is craving boobies never too old. Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: richmond hill Posts: 11,132 Representing:	yeah, good try Ugo...... but i just dont have the anything new to add... its been done. plus, i'm depressed. it'll be fun to see TJ again tonight. hopefully his presence will light a fire under some of our guys and we can get over this hump.

12-10-2008, 09:32 AM	#4 (permalink)
Sick, Wicked and Nasty! is adoring his baby girl. Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Canada eh? Posts: 3,288 Representing:	While I agree with UGo's premise..i dont' want to debate it again either. I am looking forward to watching TJ play tonight. HOpefully the Raps get up for this one. I wonder what the attendance will be like.

12-10-2008, 09:40 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ugo Ferst is pounding the rock! Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,312 Representing:	I hear you guys, just figured with TJ coming to town tonight, i'd give my 2 cents on the major reason i feel the Raptors arent progressing as expected.

12-10-2008, 10:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
Ugo Ferst is pounding the rock! Banned Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 4,312 Representing:	Again, not many like rehashing this, but i enjoy it on the cusp of the game :P It's pretty simple Basketball 101 to me, if you have a team full of shooters, you want a PG that can create his own shot, drive and kick. If you have a team with a Post presence and a Slasher, you want a PG that can make the right decisions, knock down open looks and not turn it over. Having Kap and Calde on the floor at the sametime is redundant, Calde cant create anything for him, and ppl are wondering why Kap is underused, he needs a penetrating PG to get him those easier looks. Ill say it one last time, i think Jose is a fine PG, very good, just not for this team.

12-10-2008, 11:03 AM	#8 (permalink)
TORaptor4Ever is embracing change Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 15,063 Representing:	I could be mistaken but I don't believe that the HOU Rockets had any guards that were great slashers and penetrators. They all just spotted up and worked off of Hakeem in the post. We have TWO great post players here. There's no reason why JK shouldn't be getting a ton of open shots. Part of the problem is that we're consistnetly isolating one big on one side of the floor while EVERYONE else goes to the other side. No one for Bosh & JO to pass to.

12-10-2008, 11:08 AM	#10 (permalink)
MikeToronto is Gam zeh ya'avor The Gatekeeper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 3,506 Representing:	Can we lock this thread, please?

12-10-2008, 11:15 AM	#14 (permalink)
TORaptor4Ever is embracing change Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 15,063 Representing:	We should be utilizing the "high/low" pass WAY more than we are... have we even SEEN one this season yet? It's a pretty effective way to break zones and double teams far away from the basket.

12-10-2008, 11:41 AM	#19 (permalink)
MikeToronto is Gam zeh ya'avor The Gatekeeper Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 3,506 Representing:	Because the horse is dead...

12-10-2008, 11:53 AM	#20 (permalink)
Slick94 is sick of the raps sucking Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Ontario Posts: 94 Representing:	I don't see the purpose of these threads? Sorry TJ lovers, Jose is our point guard. TJ is NOT coming back so theres no point in talking about the "what ifs". He's gone, I know its a soft spot for some of you. Lets talk about something thats actually relevant to our team right now because talking about the past will not accomplish anything. Period.