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the dead horse - Page 2
Old 12-10-2008, 12:54 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Old 12-10-2008, 01:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugo Ferst;91153TJ is the reason we overachieved in the past, [B
his heart[/b], his playing style,
Hahaha, his heart? hahahaha Ya his huge heart that was so great it could only care for one person....and that was his own selfish ass.
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Old 12-10-2008, 01:39 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Jose has stepped up this year as a vocal leader on and off the court. He's an unselfish player that works hard and has the respect of his teammates. He's great at getting others involved.

There was no way to keep both guys around. I'm happy with the decision to keep Jose, though I'm not completely sold on the trade that brought in JO.

That said, I see a Raptors roster that has holes at some positions and a logjam at PF. I'm sure BC sees the same things. I would expect a move to be made soon, for the same reason that the logjam at PG was cleared up this summer.
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Old 12-10-2008, 01:55 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Hahaha, his heart? hahahaha Ya his huge heart that was so great it could only care for one person....and that was his own selfish ass.

Dont believe media bullshit, he never said anything that bad, or did anything that showed he only cared about himself. So what he was a bit upset he wasnt the starter anymore, any great COMPETITIVE player wants to start, and feels the pain when he doesnt. He never disrespected the city, the team, any players, the coaching staff or asked for a trade, the media was just looking for reasons, body language, facial expressions etc to make him look bad, all the while talking up Calderons selflessness, team 1st attitude and great play.
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Old 12-10-2008, 05:06 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Hate to jump in on this thread but its so tempting I just had to say whats on my mind. The TJ vs Jose comparison just has to stop. TJ is no longer a Raptor, never was he was always a me J. TJ is on his 3rd NBA team. His play in Indy this year is average at best and all TJ supporters who expected TJ to post some big time stats this year must be hurting because its just a matter of time before Indy moves him. The Raptors made the right decision to keep Jose.Even though both teams are struggling Jose still has way more value then TJ. However,regarding tonights game I expect TJ to play his best game of his life. He will try to prove that the Raptors made a mistake, if the Pacers give him the minutes he will explode for 36 pts, 5 assists and 5 t/o. He will play one on one on Jose. Book it.
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:08 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
People hated TJ for the same reason that they hated Mike James.

Both were fantastic athletes capable of taking over a game... but their egos were WAY out of whack. Anyone who can't see that is fooling themselves.

If TJ were here now instead of Jose we'd all be lamenting the fact that we gave away one of the best pur PGs in the league and our Asst/TO ratio would be absolutely brutal.... not to mention the plethora of people shouting "TJ WTF ARE YOU DOING?????" in the last 5 min. of every game.
In no way can you ever compare the two. Ever. People hated TJ because he was erratic at times and didn't know how to say all the right things. The truth is, he was and still is a more complete player than Calderon. The only real longterm trouble is his durability. The rest is just fans being fans.

Mike James was a full time chucker playing for contract. There was nothing about him or his game except that, often enough, he had a hot hand. But he shot until he hit it and kept shooting until he missed. He's beyond chucker and beyond selfish.
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Old 12-10-2008, 07:10 PM   #27 (permalink)
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How is TJ a more complete player than Jose, especially with his suspect shot and his miniature stature?

OMG, I am being drawn into this shit again.... Must resist...
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Old 12-10-2008, 09:52 PM   #28 (permalink)
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In no way can you ever compare the two. Ever. People hated TJ because he was erratic at times and didn't know how to say all the right things. The truth is, he was and still is a more complete player than Calderon. The only real longterm trouble is his durability. The rest is just fans being fans.

Mike James was a full time chucker playing for contract. There was nothing about him or his game except that, often enough, he had a hot hand. But he shot until he hit it and kept shooting until he missed. He's beyond chucker and beyond selfish.
In your mind maybe.

After watching tonight's game I see no reason to pine for TJ.

I always thought that he was overrated.

And you can say all you want about "fans being fans".... even all of the COMMENTATORS thought that TJ was a bit immature and selfish last year.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:39 PM   #29 (permalink)
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yeah - TJ has definitely shown tonight how important he was for Toronto ...
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.
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Old 12-10-2008, 10:42 PM   #30 (permalink)
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and besides durability, the other important issue with TJ was decision making. We kept waiting for him to show growth in that area, and frankly, why there was improvement, I always doubted that TJ will ever get it. He's fast and can get to the rim at will, but once he gets there, he doesn't know what to do, which sometimes leads to fantastic plays, and other times leads to TOs. And against good competition, who can block penetration, TJ becomes useless since he can't shoot. And, while his quickness allows him to keep guys in front of him much easier than Jose can, he was abused by all good coaches who were posting their guards (sometimes we never do for some reason - I bet Jose can take harris in the post from time to time).
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:38 PM   #31 (permalink)
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And you can say all you want about "fans being fans".... even all of the COMMENTATORS thought that TJ was a bit immature and selfish last year.
Yeah becouse the COMMENTATORS really KNOW THE GAME! LIKE! OH MY GOD!
I give up.

TJ will mature with time and everyone will want him on the team. He's a top level PG only if he gets his emotions under control and is lucky enough to stay healthy.

But none of you will admit it and will act as if he's some kind of devil who conspired with Sam to screw up your little team. Well, I was the first to promote Calderon as a starter of all you die hard Calderonists and I really have no reason to prove or repeat how much I like Calderon and his game. But he'll never ever be anything more than a good point guard while TJ, only real question mark is his health/durability, will become much much better as he matures. But no, we can't wait we need to win be better now that's why we drafted Bargnani, he will be a solid player very soon... just mere 10 years.

Whatever.
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:38 PM   #32 (permalink)
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And you can say all you want about "fans being fans".... even all of the COMMENTATORS thought that TJ was a bit immature and selfish last year.
Yeah becouse the COMMENTATORS really KNOW THE GAME! LIKE! OH MY GOD!
I give up.

TJ will mature with time and everyone will want him on the team. He's a top level PG only if he gets his emotions under control and is lucky enough to stay healthy.

But none of you will admit it and will act as if he's some kind of devil who conspired with Sam to screw up your little team. Well, I was the first to promote Calderon as a starter of all you die hard Calderonists and I really have no reason to prove or repeat how much I like Calderon and his game. But he'll never ever be anything more than a good point guard while TJ, only real question mark is his health/durability, will become much much better as he matures. But no, we can't wait we need to win be better now that's why we drafted Bargnani, he will be a solid player very soon... just mere 10 years.

Whatever.
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:47 PM   #33 (permalink)
is getting to the line..

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Hate to jump in on this thread but its so tempting I just had to say whats on my mind. The TJ vs Jose comparison just has to stop. TJ is no longer a Raptor, never was he was always a me J. TJ is on his 3rd NBA team. His play in Indy this year is average at best and all TJ supporters who expected TJ to post some big time stats this year must be hurting because its just a matter of time before Indy moves him. The Raptors made the right decision to keep Jose.Even though both teams are struggling Jose still has way more value then TJ. However,regarding tonights game I expect TJ to play his best game of his life. He will try to prove that the Raptors made a mistake, if the Pacers give him the minutes he will explode for 36 pts, 5 assists and 5 t/o. He will play one on one on Jose. Book it.
He had 4pts/4assits with 2 turnovers in almost 28 mins....

no more perdictions for you!!!
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:50 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Two seasons ago I loved seeing both guys improve and I thought it was going to be fun watching them in the following season, while it became more clear who should be the guy in the future.

Last season I saw up and down stretches from both, and had this horrible feeling that no matter what happened we would end up trading the wrong guy.

Now I wish they had both been traded. They were both nice together. Jose looked great last night, precisely because he was able to do what he did when at his best last year - play more like TJ. Does he need TJ in the building to play like that? It seems that way. And it's freaky. But the competitive nature between the two was actually a very good thing, and without that there's something lost. Which is fine if you're going to build a team that makes all that energy at the point less important. And maybe the best way to get that team built was to trade both of the guys that were here. But that would require an actual vision of what this team is going to be, and that seems to be completely lacking.
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Old 12-11-2008, 07:57 PM   #35 (permalink)
is getting to the line..

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Yeah becouse the COMMENTATORS really KNOW THE GAME! LIKE! OH MY GOD!
I give up.

TJ will mature with time and everyone will want him on the team. He's a top level PG only if he gets his emotions under control and is lucky enough to stay healthy.

But none of you will admit it and will act as if he's some kind of devil who conspired with Sam to screw up your little team. Well, I was the first to promote Calderon as a starter of all you die hard Calderonists and I really have no reason to prove or repeat how much I like Calderon and his game. But he'll never ever be anything more than a good point guard while TJ, only real question mark is his health/durability, will become much much better as he matures. But no, we can't wait we need to win be better now that's why we drafted Bargnani, he will be a solid player very soon... just mere 10 years.

Whatever.
yes HEALTH is a QUESTION MARK... the longer we WAIT for him to fucking MATURE already and develop into this ELITE PG you keep saying hes going to be the more of a chance he will get hurt again...

for fuck sakes hes been in the NBA 4 years and Calderon 3 and has had WAY MORE FUCKING mins as a starter to mature and develop and where is he now? Whineing like a baby to start with that stupid look on his face when he fucks up.

not to meniton basically SPLITTING the PG mins with Jarret Jack ... who the coach feels hes more comfortable with in the 4th quarter....

hrmm wonder why?

Last night:

T.Ford 27:22 MINS
J.Jack 28:25 MINS


Last edited by Ex2k; 12-11-2008 at 07:59 PM.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:22 PM   #36 (permalink)
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The team last night played it's best basketball in stretches, because all 5 guys on the court realized they were good basketball players, and they didn't have to just stand around and watch one guy.

Everybody was active and moving and their wasn't any telegraphing of the plays they were going to run, and it was beautiful basketball.

But their were times, where Jose was a little too ball dominant on the court again. And the fact is, he lacks the skill to be the primary ball handler. Does he make up for it in heart? Sure. But eventually, if he wants to stay effective on the court, he's got to give up being the set up guy so often. He probably knows more than any other player out their what should be going down, but he can't be that guy who everything is running through.

I think Jose could flourish if he would choose to be the 5th option on this team when he's on the court. Pick and choose his spots to go to the rim, and be a weakside three point shooter, and more importantly, get rid of the ball early and often.

It's amazing how sharing the basketball can get teams playing as a team, and I'm not calling Jose a ballhog, but when he pounds the ball trying to set up a play that the defense caught on to 5 seconds prior to him passing, everything feels rushed, and the other guys don't end up getting enough touches.
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