Davis switching up his personality - Page 3
Old 10-09-2012, 03:16 PM   #41 (permalink)
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We've done this before, I've critiqued pretty much everyone on the roster quite harshly before (2011/2012 roster). I would do it again but it's quite exhausting and a waste of time.

Also, nice job attacking the person.
that wasn't an attack, that was purely in jest. You switched the names, playfully, I just made reference to why it wasn't necessary in this thread. Are we not good? I thought we were, you cookie monster'd me!

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Old 10-09-2012, 03:30 PM   #42 (permalink)
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that wasn't an attack, that was purely in jest. You switched the names, playfully, I just made reference to why it wasn't necessary in this thread. Are we not good? I thought we were, you cookie monster'd me!

ah, I didn't think it was in jest. my bad. we're good dude.
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Old 10-09-2012, 03:35 PM   #43 (permalink)
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ed just sucked last season, he basically regressed from his rookie season and that's never a good thing. Name one thing he did better last season vs his rookie year?
He slightly improved his defensive rebounding. He almost doubled his assist rate. He increased his WS/48 slightly (while doubling his defensive win shares, making up for his hurting offense). He increased his block and steal rates. He improved his FT% from 55 to 67%. He decreased his foul rate. Although his jumper suffered (and he took more for some reason) his inside scoring was actually more efficient (66% vs 64%).

I couldn't pick one.

He had a rough year with the jumper, and his offensive rebounding dipped, but otherwise, he pretty much held steady and certainly improved defensively under Casey.
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Old 10-09-2012, 05:27 PM   #44 (permalink)
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He slightly improved his defensive rebounding. He almost doubled his assist rate. He increased his WS/48 slightly (while doubling his defensive win shares, making up for his hurting offense). He increased his block and steal rates. He improved his FT% from 55 to 67%. He decreased his foul rate. Although his jumper suffered (and he took more for some reason) his inside scoring was actually more efficient (66% vs 64%).

I couldn't pick one.

He had a rough year with the jumper, and his offensive rebounding dipped, but otherwise, he pretty much held steady and certainly improved defensively under Casey.
basketball reference ftw. I was looking up his stats on it earlier in the day.
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Old 10-09-2012, 06:24 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Ed Davis is an undersized4 and an under skilled 3. Thats it.

Maybe he continues to get better, maybe not. Lets not make him anything his is or isnt though ok...its ridiculous.

at this present moment, if your desire is to see the Toronto Raptors make a jump from terrible to average, Ed Davis can't be you starting PF. I'm sorry man, he can't.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:10 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Yeah. Ed is not Griffin. But bad defender? That's crazy talk moremilk. He's a much better defender than Griffin, for starters.

And I didn't suggest missing training camp was an excuse. I listed a bunch of factors that effected him, many that were on him, but considering the level of experience he's at, it's way too early to write him off, unless he absolutely needs to be Griffin.
I replied to points raised in multiple posts by different people, hence the missed training camp aspect.

as far as defense, let's just say he's not a good defender if the word bad doesn't go with you. He lacks the strength to defend stronger players, he's inexperienced and he fouls too much (partly due to the lack of strength). Since defensive stats are few and unreliable, it comes down to a subjective view so it's difficult to argue this point. But to my eye, he was definitely not a plus on defense. Maybe an argument in my favour is the fact that casey didn't play him all that much and, unlike Triano, Casey values defensive players.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:25 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Ed Davis is an undersized4 and an under skilled 3. Thats it.

Maybe he continues to get better, maybe not. Lets not make him anything his is or isnt though ok...its ridiculous.

at this present moment, if your desire is to see the Toronto Raptors make a jump from terrible to average, Ed Davis can't be you starting PF. I'm sorry man, he can't.
ed is an undersized 5, not an undersized 4. he's 6-10! since when are average 3's 6-10??
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:35 PM   #48 (permalink)
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ed is an undersized 5, not an undersized 4. he's 6-10! since when are average 3's 6-10??
he doesn't look that tall.... but whatever.
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Old 10-09-2012, 08:41 PM   #49 (permalink)
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he doesn't look that tall.... but whatever.
6'9 w/o shoes
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:45 PM   #50 (permalink)
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He gets pushed around, tall is not big, big is big, and he aint big....

I mean what we talking bout...big? We talking bout big!
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:52 PM   #51 (permalink)
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He slightly improved his defensive rebounding. He almost doubled his assist rate. He increased his WS/48 slightly (while doubling his defensive win shares, making up for his hurting offense). He increased his block and steal rates. He improved his FT% from 55 to 67%. He decreased his foul rate. Although his jumper suffered (and he took more for some reason) his inside scoring was actually more efficient (66% vs 64%).

I couldn't pick one.

He had a rough year with the jumper, and his offensive rebounding dipped, but otherwise, he pretty much held steady and certainly improved defensively under Casey.
He didn't double his assist rate, he increased it by 50% only which sounds like a lot except when you look at the net increase, which is 20 assists over the course of the entire season ... The FT% increase is a good thing, but that's probably the only significant one. Rebounding was the same (notwithstanding statistical noise - over the course of the season 30 less offensive and 10 more defensive rebounds), steals and blocks the same and TOs and FG% were significantly worse. Fouls have decreased, but I'm not sure if that's a clear positive for an energy player.

Ultimately, the problem is that a 2nd year player is supposed to make significant jumps, especially when the starting point wasn't all that great. So pretty much any way you look at it, it was a pretty big disappointment, at least to me and there are no excuses for it, he should have been better.

I just want to clarify one thing - I'm not writing him off, the talent is there. He's not going to be an all star, but he can be a solid starter if he puts it together. Unfortunately for us/him, this season will probably be his last chance to do it in T.O., with the logjam we have in the frontcourt, I don't see him sticking around for another year. Frankly, he may not stick even if he plays well, unless he blows away expectations - in fact, the better he plays, the easier is to use him as a trade piece for that SF we really miss.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:38 PM   #52 (permalink)
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the better he plays, the easier is to use him as a trade piece for that SF we really miss.
Him, DD and Jose but for whom? that is the question.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:53 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Him, DD and Jose but for whom? that is the question.
We've put too much time into developing DD... I think it's Ed, Jose and some future considerations and cash.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:55 PM   #54 (permalink)
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We've put too much time into developing DD... I think it's Ed, Jose and some future considerations and cash.
For?
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Old 10-09-2012, 11:11 PM   #55 (permalink)
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We've put too much time into developing DD... I think it's Ed, Jose and some future considerations and cash.
Yeah, and that's why a SG was drafted and a player who's better at SG than SF was signed in FA. ED and Jose + whatever won't be enough.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:42 AM   #56 (permalink)
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The better he plays, and fits with a system and coach that insists on defensive accountability, the more likely it makes anyone else with bigger contracts expendable. If we need to sweeten a Calderon deal just to get it done, and then watch that sweetener turn into something we obviously need here, then I'll be done with this team.

This season is about assessing the pieces, seeing how they fit, and making the deal that raises what works to another level while giving up individual talent that might not do much to help raise the level of play among the whole team. From what I've seen of Davis at his best, he raises the overall level play. He does a lot of the little things instinctively. You don't give up on that so easily.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:05 AM   #57 (permalink)
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I think you're romanticizing the play of Davis. The guy has proven very little. If he improves, he does become an asset, whether to keep or pawn off for other talents. With Amir and Ed there is redundancy and neither is able to do what Gray can do. How it washes out, who knows, but all three are minor pieces until they prove to be more.

Heck, JJ. Hickson was floating around waivers last season and he's better than Davis. If Davis wants to take a cheap contract like Nick Collison took, then his value to us will skyrocket. If he's going to eventually need to be re-upped for significant cash then he's replaceable.

Ed lacks an imposing presence on defense, gets pushed around way too much, often misses assignments on both ends, doesn't set screens well, has a very mechanical post-up game but he is a decent shot-blocker, can run the floor, isn't a great finisher around the rim, is young and healthy, and can rebound very well when he wants to. There is a lot of upside here, we'll see how it shakes out.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:20 AM   #58 (permalink)
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I'm not romanticizing anything. I'm just saying that this season is precisely about how things shake out. There is a tendency here to write him off as too small (which he really isn't) too easily pushed around (which is not entirely true, and easily rectified to the extent that it is) or simply redundant (and if he shows that he helps make increased tempo and defensive accountability work by improving on a base of very good natural instincts and abilities then he simply fits one way or another). Let it all shake out then, and let's stop making assumptions based on a small sampling of poor outings.

It's all going to come down to what group of players is most effective together, and he's in the mix to show something to that effect. I'm sick of watching the usual mish-mash of individual players here. It's time to build a team. Any individual player on this team could be disqualified as a keeper for one reason or another, but please don't tell me that will be how decisions are made. It's about the whole being more than the sum of the parts.

Last edited by LX; 10-10-2012 at 08:24 AM.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:52 AM   #59 (permalink)
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I'm not romanticizing anything. I'm just saying that this season is precisely about how things shake out. There is a tendency here to write him off as too small (which he really isn't) too easily pushed around (which is not entirely true, and easily rectified to the extent that it is) or simply redundant (and if he shows that he helps make increased tempo and defensive accountability work by improving on a base of very good natural instincts and abilities then he simply fits one way or another). Let it all shake out then, and let's stop making assumptions based on a small sampling of poor outings.

It's all going to come down to what group of players is most effective together, and he's in the mix to show something to that effect. I'm sick of watching the usual mish-mash of individual players here. It's time to build a team. Any individual player on this team could be disqualified as a keeper for one reason or another, but please don't tell me that will be how decisions are made. It's about the whole being more than the sum of the parts.
I can agree with that. Too often players get written off... though it's important to not annoint players as the next coming either. Sonny Weems and Quincy Douby are no longer here but I can still remember being told I was foolish for thinking they weren't going to take the city to the top!

I think too much emphasis is placed on stat categories sometimes rather than contributions to winning basketball games. That's what is important, not bean counting. I think Ed can get better, we'll see how much better.
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Old 10-10-2012, 09:05 AM   #60 (permalink)
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For?
someone like Tyreke.... a guy that isn't fitting in where he is and needs a change. Adding in Demar is too much, especially because we should be looking to add not swap.
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