Could we emerge from the lock out as potential winners? - Page 2
Old 09-27-2011, 05:35 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
I'm sorry... what do you think they gave up for Bayless and how good do you think he is? I think your overestimating both.
explain to me, how that deal prepares you for the lockout?
it's a good deal for a rebuilding team despite the lockout.
if there is a season, it gets so much better.

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Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
Lol if you think they are going to be given a year closer to UFA. Not gonna happen. Contracts will pick back up where they let off
now you are just dreaming.
no they won't.

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Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
There will be a one time buyout clause to get out from any bad contracts with a small penalty against the cap.
now you are just talking about CBA, not a missed season.
CBA would be there if we don't miss a season, you know.
how does a missed season help the Raptors?

PS: i will ignore that none of these clauses aren't set in stone yet.
or that the Raptors probably benefit less from them compared to teams like Magic or Cleveland.
that's irrelevant for this particular thread.

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Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
***everything else***
i won't bother answering the rest.
sit back and think - "how is it different if there is a season"?
you are just throwing stuff at the wall hoping it stick.
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:26 PM   #22 (permalink)
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1. Bayless is completely inconsequential to the future. He's easily reaplceable. And it's probabaly better if they do. Would any planning I did for the lockout revoivle around the horrible loss of not being able to further evaluate him? No... I just don't see your point here.

2. I'll clarify .... contracts may not remain but UFA timelines will be the same or longer. It's not going to move to less time required to get to UFA in the players favour. Losing one year of DD is not hurting is moving forward since we were not winning this year no matter what. Quite frnakly finishing last this year would have been wonderful.

3. What does preparing for the future mean ? It's all about the CBA and how to best be prepared for cap changes and be flexible. Again... hockey at the lockout. Missing a season and drafting high is preferable to finishing horrible and drafting high to the Raptors and their fans right prolly. We have no long term contracts, lots of youth, one young player not here for a year so no real improvement and pretty much complete cap flexibility. A good spot moving forward. you keep looking at the minor things they lost (a low pick for barbosa) and not what they gained or possible gain by flexibility when other teams become capped out.

And book it because buyouts will be the case when the season dies and they get playing under a new CBA with a harder cap.

It's not different if there's a season.... planning for a lockout = making flexibility because the NBA will "win" the CBA and there will be lower cap space and harder cap. I don't see the NBA losing this fight, or players winning, ever. So yes they could play... but the net effect is Raptors are preparing for the new CBA and even if they played this year ...who cares sadly... they will make no noise.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:20 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
It's not going to move to less time required to get to UFA in the players favour.
?

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Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
Missing a season and drafting high is preferable to finishing horrible and drafting high to the Raptors and their fans right prolly.
why? because fans hate watching Raptors?

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Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
***the rest***
look man. you said that Raptors were somehow rebuilt specifically with lockout in mind. And thus a missed year is good for the Raps.

i don't see any lockout-targeted moves.
all i see is a team that's going young. Which is good in this situation, lockout or not.
And it's hurt by lockout because you lose some of those rookie contract years and some development time.

you keep arguing that Bayless sucks,
or that Raptors suck,
or that rebuilding rocks,
or that CBA rocks,
or that we need high picks.
But that's all irrelevant to your initial point.
I feel like a priest who's listening to a basketball junkie confession right now. A barrage of unrelated NBA thoughts.

anyway, it's a minor debate.
I just thought I'd hear what were the lockout-targeted moves that Raptors made. But it seems you are confused. so nvm.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:28 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
?



why? because fans hate watching Raptors?



look man. you said that Raptors were somehow rebuilt specifically with lockout in mind. And thus a missed year is good for the Raps.

i don't see any lockout-targeted moves.
all i see is a team that's going young. Which is good in this situation, lockout or not.
And it's hurt by lockout because you lose some of those rookie contract years and some development time.

you keep arguing that Bayless sucks,
or that Raptors suck,
or that rebuilding rocks,
or that CBA rocks,
or that we need high picks.
But that's all irrelevant to your initial point.
I feel like a priest who's listening to a basketball junkie confession right now. A barrage of unrelated NBA thoughts.

anyway, it's a minor debate.
I just thought I'd hear what were the lockout-targeted moves that Raptors made. But it seems you are confused. so nvm.
you seem to be really struggling with this guy's ideas/enjoying arguing with him. So a suggestion, read the other threads on this subject and see the multitude of other people who have made points about how the lockout could benefit the raps.

it is a debateable subject, not sure where i land on it, think i'm just leaning towards that it won't be of any huge benefit to us BUT other people have made points on this so maybe their points will make more sense to you.
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:55 PM   #25 (permalink)
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hmm what? why would i spend time doing that?
do you know something I'm missing?
or do you just dislike arguments and rather have me searching a ton of old posts?
or do you like digging up old posts via search yourself? personally, i hate doing that. unless i'm looking for some info, not opinion. opinions are generally repetitive.

btw, you don't seem to understand what we were talking about.
i can't blame you, "Raptors planned to lose a season" is just too weird of an idea.
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:08 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
hmm what? why would i spend time doing that?
do you know something I'm missing?
or do you just dislike arguments and rather have me searching a ton of old posts?
or do you like digging up old posts via search yourself? personally, i hate doing that. unless i'm looking for some info, not opinion. opinions are generally repetitive.

btw, you don't seem to understand what we were talking about.
i can't blame you, "Raptors planned to lose a season" is just too weird of an idea.
you seem to be prepared to put the time in to debate these things!? It wouldn't take much time anyway! will probably appear on page 1 maybe page 2. just look for the word "lockout."

I do dislike arguments yes, because usually at least one of the sides (probably both) are acting in an opinionated, immature way. When someone is trying to win an argument the quality of the points usually suffers badly. I like debate.

i don't think the Raptors planned to lose a season, but whether or not the Raptors will benefit from a lockout is a huge part of that debate and was the part of the debate i was referring to.
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:31 PM   #27 (permalink)
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well "debate" then.
u know, going around telling people to read up without adding anything is a bit weird.
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:43 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
well "debate" then.
u know, going around telling people to read up without adding anything is a bit weird.
debate and argument are different. I think i defined argument pretty well. here is a definition of debate; sharing of ideas, saying something along the lines of "see what you're saying but i don't agree with it." I'm not some sort of perfect guy who never argues, but i haven't seen much "debate" coming from you in the last few threads i've looked in!

not really sure if anything i've done is "weird." basically, i'm closer to your side of the debate but i didn't like the way you went about it so i picked you up on it. There was a good debate on the merits of the lockout for the raps, it won't be hard to find and it's worth reading..........if you have the time........
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Old 09-27-2011, 06:10 PM   #29 (permalink)
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if you don't like how i go about things, report me, ignore me or challenge me.
why would you tell me to search for stuff. and then write a series of abstract posts.

not that i think you've got much of a point here.
the guy "lol"ed at my post, then couldn't make a sensible argument, so i went sarcastic on him.
i tend to do that, i don't deny it. big deal.
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Old 09-27-2011, 07:19 PM   #30 (permalink)
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btw, you don't seem to understand what we were talking about.
he doesn't? Ya... you have reading comprehension issues. I`just ignoring you so I don;t have to see your posts again.
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Old 09-28-2011, 05:41 AM   #31 (permalink)
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if you don't like how i go about things, report me, ignore me or challenge me.
why would you tell me to search for stuff. and then write a series of abstract posts.

not that i think you've got much of a point here.
the guy "lol"ed at my post, then couldn't make a sensible argument, so i went sarcastic on him.
i tend to do that, i don't deny it. big deal.

nowehere near serious enough to report, did challenge you. There was nothing abstract about the posts, they were clear and concise.

one last time, i was not making a point about the argument, i was making about how to talk to people. you're clearly not interested in that, which is fine but i felt like saying something. When you don't like what people are saying you seem to act as if you do not understand it or it is in someway "absract."

no, i guess being rude is not a big deal.
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:53 AM   #32 (permalink)
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We could also just get the third pick for free sans season. In what's supposed to be a stacked draft that might actually net us another starter at Small Forward or Point Guard. Or I don't know... throw that and whatever else we can at Chris Paul?
He won't play here lol.
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Old 09-28-2011, 08:20 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I know you are trying to teach me "how to talk to people" maturely.
But you are doing it by jumping into a discussion which you clearly don't fully understand and telling people to read up on stuff. It's hypocritical and patronizing. Not very mature.

And no, I didn't act like i didn't understand the guy. I simply didn't understand the guy.

the guy said that Raptors will be good with the lost season because they rebuilt preparing to lose a season.
I wanted him to clarify.
The guy lol'ed. He then diverted conversation into general rebuilding and CBA.
So yeah, i was confused. Because I was laughed at and didn't even get an answer to the post.

Anyway, lets forget it. This whole thing is weird.
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Old 09-28-2011, 03:19 PM   #34 (permalink)
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young players get another year of physical maturity and development.
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Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
How does that make sense?

What's different if there is a season?

Do Raptors kids stop getting better?

Do vets stop aging?
I didn't explain myself well. Traditionally, regular and post-season games are where players improve their in-game decision making and confidence, and game in-game experience. However, the offseason is where players add moves to their repetoire.

Classic examples are Jordan adding a 3 point shot in the offseason after a few years, Larry Bird completely developing his already near-ambidextrous left hand one offseason, many young players adding post-up games, Hakeem constantly adding steps to his dream shake moves, lots and lots of young players learning to develop their handles in the offseason, etc.

We have a lot of young players with little to no college experience on our roster (Bayless, Amir, DeMar, Ed Davis, etc.). These players were drafted high because of athleticism, talent, and raw skills. They all have big holes in their game.

Not all players have the discipline to add key pieces to their game, but there are some glaring weaknesses to certain players' games that they will have a LOT of off-time to work on. In my estimation:

DeMar:
-left hand
-dribbling skills in general
-shooting, and 3 point shooting especially

Amir Johnson
-where do we begin? Jump shot, post up game, keeping down on pump fakes (repeated drills & training can help), etc.

Jerryd Bayless
-needs a shot. He's got great quickness but needs a shot to keep the defense honest and open up his game

Ed Davis
-pretty much everything except rebounding

-----------

So to answer your question of "if there's a season, do the Raptor kids stop getting better?" The answer is yes, no, and sort of. Their in-game experience gets better, but their game will not take on added dimensions. The offseason is a time to work on these things that there isn't time for during the season.

Michael Jordan broke his leg 18 games into his second season. When he came back in year 3, his jump shooting was tremendously improved. He had time to work on his shot when he was recovering from injury, and his game became that much more lethal. Two years later MJ would develop his awful (~13%) 3 point shot to the point of less-awfulness (~27%), and the following season he brought his 3 point shot up to 37%. These kind of improvements don't just happen overnight, they take hours and hours and hours of practise, which is typically done in the offseason because there isn't time for that kind of intensive work during the regular season.
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Old 09-28-2011, 06:09 PM   #35 (permalink)
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There are some opportunities, indeed.

But keep in mind that lockout is very different compared to the usual offseason.
Full year lockout = guys training on their own, out of their own pocket, using their own brains and motivation. No summer leagues, no free world class individual trainers for every facet of your game, no individual training plans set up by the team, no team supervision whatsoever.
Most likely they'll just do some low level Vegas 5 on 5s with some workouts mixed in, a la DeRozan right now.

I see what you are hoping for, and maybe they do all pull Jordans and come back better.
But better than they would without the lockout? I think it's wishfull thinking. NBA player development system is very good, and i'd rather have my youngsters benefit from it. Not just games, but all the other parts of it - supervision, trainers, facilities, and so on.

Last edited by ValanciunasFanboy; 09-28-2011 at 06:24 PM.
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