Comparing our bench to others
Old 08-28-2009, 09:05 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Although there’s ****-all to talk about the show must go on. In the recent Triano interview he said:

All of a sudden we’ve got two teams now, we’ve got a starting group and a bench group, though I don’t know who’s in which one.

Let me help you out, Jay. Here’s your bench:

Jarrett Jack, Marco Belinelli, Antoine Wright, Reggie Evans, Rasho Nesterovic

How does this bench fare against teams we’ll be competing with?

I know this isn’t how the benches will exactly lineup and I also know that teams mix-and-match first and second unit players, but for the sake of discussion let’s go with this.

Celtics: Eddie House, Tony Allen, Brian Scalabrine, Rasheed Wallace, Baby Davis

They’re better. Eddie House is no longer someone you remember only because of his last name. He’s become a reliable three point shooter and has proven that his quick-release can be effective coming off any screen that provides him with a daylight of space. Scalabrine is a joke for various reasons but he’s found a nice with the Celtics and knows where his 3’s will come from with Garnett and Pierce on the court, the chemistry factor for Scalabrine is very high, thus making him a great fit even though he doesn’t have great talent. Rasheed Wallace might just be the signing of the summer, they lost Leon Powe but replaced him with someone twice as good and who makes the Celtics even meaner. Tony Allen is their Jarrett Jack and Baby Davis trumps Rasho.

Cavaliers: Daniel Gibson, Anthony Parker, Jamario Moon, Leon Powe, Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Raptors win. Ilgauskas is their main advantage off the bench but he’s approaching 50. Leon Powe and Reggie Evans are a wash and I’d give Jack the advantage over Gibson. Nothing needs to be said for Parker and Moon. It’ll be very interesting to see how the Cavaliers’ role players fit in with what they’ve got going in the starting lineup. Wisdom says they need three-point shooting and they got Parker to complement Gibson in addressing that. However, nobody doubles Shaq anymore. Parker was also brought in for his size at the defensive end after the playoffs exposed Cleveland’s guards. I can’t imagine LeBron being too excited about the wing depth here.

Magic: J.J Redick, Mickael Pietrus, Matt Barnes, Ryan Anderson, Marcin Gortat

Even. It’s a question of known and unknown quantities when Belinelli goes up against Barnes or Pietrus. Nobody knows what to expect from the Italian whereas his counterparts have proven to be very effective swingmen. Redick’s range from three is mighty impressive but Jack’s the stronger defender although Redick is underrated. I’d call the offensive matchup even at the PG with Jack getting an edge defensively. Pietrus and Wright’s defense is even with Ryan Anderson being the X-Factor for the Magic. Rasho gets an edge over the surprisingly sought-after Gortat who I liken to Eric Montross, except with a childhood that gave him a bit of a mean streak.

Pistons: Will Bynum, Charlie Villanueva, Jason Maxiell, Kwame Brown, Chris Wilcox

Raptors. Barely. Belinelli reminds me of Charlie V – ability to explode offensively and a sieve on defense. Give Charlie V the edge because of the experience and aerodynamics. The frontline of Brown and Wilcox is highly questionable but they’re both younger and more athletic than Evans or Nesterovic. Ex-Piston Amir Johnson might beat out one of those two for the starting role but can’t see it happening early in the season. Wilcox is statistically a great player and gets his share of highlight-reel time but our veterans can counter. Maxiell is their most effective bench player with Charlie V being the best offensive player on either bench. Jack gets the edge at the PG. Not convinced that the Pistons are done dealing for the summer.

Bulls: Lindsey Hunter, Jannero Pargo, John Salmons, Joakim Noah, Jerome James

Raptors. After Hinrich the Bulls’ guard depth is questionable and you have to go with the Raptors here who trump them at PG (don’t know what impact Taj Gibson might have), SG (Pargo is technically their off-guard), and center. Joakim Noah is a good young garbage man but I feel Evans and Johnson (if given playing time) can counter. Salmons is the best offensive player on either bench and gets the nod over Wright. The defensively suspect Bulls could open up avenues for Belinelli who can use his size to get his shot off.

Hawks: Jeff Teague, Jamal Crawford, Maurice Evans, Zaza Pachulia, Joe Smith

Hawks. Jeff Teague was a steal for them but you can’t pick a rookie over Jack. Crawford and Belinelli have similar criticisms and Zaza Pachulia is a gritty and efficient center with a better inside game than any of our big men. The crafty Joe Smith is a better shooter than Rasho from 15-feet and Maurice Evans is a better offensive player than Wright. The Raptors couldn’t matchup with the Hawks’ athleticism last year and they’ve addressed that to a degree with Wright and Jack in there. The Hawks’ second unit can rebound against the Raptors, vice-versa is unknown. In the big picture, the Hawks aren’t going anywhere, last year’s second round appearance sounds about the peak for this unit.

Thoughts?
Comparing our bench to others – Raptors Republic - Raptors Blog ESPN TrueHoop
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The part about Eddie House is hilarious IMO. Also I don't see how Celts have a better bench than Raps. They don't even have anybody who can dribble or pass.
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Old 08-28-2009, 10:43 AM   #3 (permalink)
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ilgauaskas will start, and so will pietrus or bass (depending if they play lewis at the 3 or at the 4). Villanueva will start at the 4, Noah is bulls' starting C and salmons will most likely start at the 2 (hinrich will probably come off the bench).


in any case, some of these teams don't come even close to our bench. Jack, Belinelli, Wright, Amir and Rasho is probably better than some starting lineups (NYK comes to mind) with their toughness and defense.

We have Jack, Belinelli, Wright, Amir, Evans, Rasho who are starting calibre players (jack and wright were starters last year and amir was the starter in about a quarter of the games for detroit.

But most of all, beyond the names, our bench is incredibly versatile. We have toughness, scoring, rebounding, defense, we have 3 point guards, 3 sg, 2 pfs and 3 Cs, only SF is a bit weak, but there's still time to add one more player to complement that.

I almost laughed myself out when you compared atlanta's bench with ours. Yes, zaza and crawford are good and evans might still have a bit left. But beyond that they have what, a rookie and a washed out player? Did you see smith last season? He's DONE, there's a reason no contender went after him. Bulls are no comparison (hinrich and miller and then it's void). Pistonts have a power weapon in gordon (or rip), but beyond that they have maxiell (i.e. amir), wilcox (energy guy with no defense or offense, beyond dunks and bynum, who is much like douby a scoring PG). Kwame and charlie will start, and wallace will provide veteran leadership from his suit at the end of the bench.

Cavs and Pistons are somewhat comparable with us (altough they spend 30 million more than we do) and Orlando might just be the best bench in the league.

I think bench wise we are 2nd in the east, with the cavs and the celtics (who also have daniels) very close behind us. BUT, our bench is much deeper than theirs, in that we have semi-serviceable guys 12-14, and probably 15 once we cut weems and get our final guy. We could lose 3 starters, and still have a good bench.

Orlando and
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:00 AM   #4 (permalink)
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moremilk - are you suggesting big z will start over shaq?
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:07 AM   #5 (permalink)
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moremilk - are you suggesting big z will start over shaq?
maybe he's suggesting that big Z plays PF over the joke of Varejao?
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:09 AM   #6 (permalink)
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maybe he's suggesting that big Z plays PF over the joke of Varejao?
That's even more preposterous. Your position tends to be determined by which position you can guard most effectively. Big-Z can't keep up with centres let alone power forwards.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
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That's even more preposterous. Your position tends to be determined by which position you can guard most effectively. Big-Z can't keep up with centres let alone power forwards.
Well I thought the whole height thing would be an advantage at the front court situation and could help the cavs with team defense in the paint and improve rebounding because of Shaq being 7'2 and Ilgauskas being 7'3 giving problems to other teams offensively.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:22 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by moremilk View Post

We have Jack, Belinelli, Wright, Amir, Evans, Rasho who are starting calibre players (jack and wright were starters last year and amir was the starter in about a quarter of the games for detroit.
i'd say there's a difference between starting calibre players and players who are used to fill in the starting lineup because of injury.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:22 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Well I thought the whole height thing would be an advantage at the front court situation and could help the cavs with team defense in the paint and improve rebounding because of Shaq being 7'2 and Ilgauskas being 7'3 giving problems to other teams offensively.


if they did that, our inside-outside game would eat them for dinner. that's like 650 lbs of slow moving bulk clogging up the paint. a smart coach would run circles around them.
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Old 08-28-2009, 11:51 AM   #10 (permalink)
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This article is irrelavent to our success. He's comparing apples to oranges. This is more of a hypethetical situation type of read. It's putting up our enitre bench vs the other teams, which will never happen.

This article would hold much more substance if it focused more on the roles that individuals on the bench bring to the team.
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Old 08-28-2009, 12:52 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I think they will play him at pf, yes
At times they might put lebron or varejao at the 4, but keep in mind that shaq doesn't play back to backs anymore, so he will get time at the 5 too
with his height, he can defend most big pfs
of course, he would not defend lewis, or even bosh, but he could defend scola or Garnett I think.
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:01 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Based on those line-ups, I'd say we're better than:

Celtics, Cavs

About the same as:

Hawks, Bulls, Pistons

Worse than:

Magic
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Bottom Line...we are the top 3 bench in NBA league....We are probably competing fornumber 1...i dont see any other team that has deep bench than our...
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:43 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Based on those line-ups, I'd say we're better than:

Celtics, Cavs

About the same as:

Hawks, Bulls, Pistons

Worse than:

Magic
Based on those lineups, which are a little off because some of those players will be starters (ie: CV, Pietrus) but i'd say:

Our bench is better then:

Boston, Chicago, Atlanta, Detroit, Cleveland

Worse then:

Orlando


Depth wise we're #2 or #3 (depending on who's looking at it) in the East, and overall we're top5 in the whole league imo.

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Old 08-28-2009, 02:02 PM   #15 (permalink)
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How about we play a game and see how it all pans out before we start saying where we rank in the league. Two years ago, no one thought the Celtics bench was any good. Now, we rank them the best or so.
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Old 08-28-2009, 02:19 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Raptors. Barely. Belinelli reminds me of Charlie V – ability to explode offensively and a sieve on defense.
First of all comparing these two players makes little sense. Secondly neither is a sieve on defence.

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E. Smith:
Belinelli is a 6′5″ shooting guard with solid range, good athleticism, and strong ball-handling skills — good enough to even see some minutes at the point if need-be. And despite what you may have read in other columns or blog, the guy isn’t a stiff on the defensive end either.

Again, let me quote the SF Chronicle from December 2008 regarding Belinelli’s defence:

” … The second-year guard has gone from benchwarmer to starter in wake of injuries to Jackson and Jamal Crawford. Known as a shooter when he entered the league last year, Belinelli has blossomed into a part-time point guard and, perhaps most surprisingly, a full-time defender. Though Belinelli isn’t the quickest athlete, he plants himself where his opponent wants to go more often than not. And Warriors coach Don Nelson has become comfortable enough with Belinelli’s defense that he’s matched him against the likes of (Ray) Allen and Kevin Durant.”
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Old 08-28-2009, 03:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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if they did that, our inside-outside game would eat them for dinner. that's like 650 lbs of slow moving bulk clogging up the paint. a smart coach would run circles around them.
But we would rely heavily on jumpshots and floaters, and once those start to brick the duo of Z and Shaq would gobble those rebounds, plus with Lebron, Mo and Delonte patrolling the perimeter would make offensive plays much more frustrating to perform.

But yea I would think that because of Bosh's explosive first step and quickness and bargnani's SF type handles would give the frontcourt of the cavs a run.
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Old 08-28-2009, 04:25 PM   #18 (permalink)
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How about we play a game and see how it all pans out before we start saying where we rank in the league. Two years ago, no one thought the Celtics bench was any good. Now, we rank them the best or so.
two years ago they didn't have rasheed and daniels though.
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Old 08-28-2009, 08:46 PM   #19 (permalink)
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does everyone not remember what happened 2 years ago when we pretty much had 1 of the best benches in the entire league but then failed miserably because everyone was good but nobody was amazing and there were too many good players in each position that none of the bench players could figure out their clear roles on the team
after that year i have to see what happens to the team before i make judgment on how good the bench is
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Old 08-29-2009, 10:27 AM   #20 (permalink)
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actually, two years ago we won 47 games, which was pretty good. And the starting lineup was not as good as it is now. Of course, the biggest difference is the quality of the opposition, in 2009 it will be a much much harder conference than it was 2 years ago.
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