Colangelo: We are clearly rebuilding, Jay doing a solid job - Page 2
Old 02-15-2011, 08:46 AM   #21 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,510
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MISAM38 View Post
I laugh when they say that Toronto is a "rebuilding" team, yet the raps have nothing to "build" around. Do u really think Bargnani is gnna help the Raptors make the playoffs in the future. Bargnani is a good player, and probably would be a keeper if he was on a team that made him come off the bench, but the fact that hes our best player doest help us in the future. The only players i would keep on this roster, is Derozan,Ed Davis, and maybe Barbosa(plays very well when healthy) Get a new cast of players and new coach , get a " promising franchise player" someone who is young could improve in the future greatly kinda like a westbrook or an eric gordon, get a couple of draft picks-on good players, and then can they start rebuilding. BC is gonna claim that this team is rebuilding for maybe a couple of years,and theres not gonna be much improvement. then perhaps we do get a bit better, a conflict will arise, which will just send us back to this "rebuilding" stage ppl are claiming we are currently in. this team was built around bosh. Without him, it doesnt fit together nicely , as our pretty record can tell.
Eric Gordon is a franchise player? Have you watched enough Clipper basketball? I think you're oversimplifying everything. You want to overhaul the roster (again), simply pluck who you want out of where you want, like it's EA sports.... the truth of the matter is that any major rebuild effort through the draft is a 5-8 year project, and it's not even a linear one. There will be times when everyone gets excited because it appears that we are turning a corner only to find that we're still very far away from being a perennial contender. At this point, all BC can do is stockpile talent, make efforts to develop that talent, and build towards a competitive culture. We're years away from being good.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 08:58 AM   #22 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 81,104
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Eric Gordon is a franchise player? Have you watched enough Clipper basketball? I think you're oversimplifying everything. You want to overhaul the roster (again), simply pluck who you want out of where you want, like it's EA sports.... the truth of the matter is that any major rebuild effort through the draft is a 5-8 year project, and it's not even a linear one. There will be times when everyone gets excited because it appears that we are turning a corner only to find that we're still very far away from being a perennial contender. At this point, all BC can do is stockpile talent, make efforts to develop that talent, and build towards a competitive culture. We're years away from being good.
5-8yrs? This isn't Baseball or Hockey. The roster is a lot smaller, so unless all you do is make picks and don't use capspace with other moves then maybe yes, 5-8yrs,otherwise it can be turned around a lot quicker in the NBA. If the right pick is made and the right moves are made in the summer with the cap space I wouldn't be shocked to be a playoff team next season.
jeffb is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 09:10 AM   #23 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,510
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
5-8yrs? This isn't Baseball or Hockey. The roster is a lot smaller, so unless all you do is make picks and don't use capspace with other moves then maybe yes, 5-8yrs,otherwise it can be turned around a lot quicker in the NBA. If the right pick is made and the right moves are made in the summer with the cap space I wouldn't be shocked to be a playoff team next season.
look around at all your rebuilding franchises, and tell me how long you think they've been rebuilding for? The reality is that it is usually longer than you think.... and in the NBA, how many teams have actually won the title over the last 30 years?

Everybody wants to make it sound like it's a linear amd absolute progression when it in fact is anything but.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 09:19 AM   #24 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,321
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
look around at all your rebuilding franchises, and tell me how long you think they've been rebuilding for? The reality is that it is usually longer than you think.... and in the NBA, how many teams have actually won the title over the last 30 years?

Everybody wants to make it sound like it's a linear amd absolute progression when it in fact is anything but.
Exactly why I'm hoping for a lockout and big changes in the CBA. Unrestircted free agency comes too early and teams lose stars way too young. Add in the luxury tax and it becomes a small number of club that can compete. One of these has to change.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 09:32 AM   #25 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 81,104
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
look around at all your rebuilding franchises, and tell me how long you think they've been rebuilding for? The reality is that it is usually longer than you think.... and in the NBA, how many teams have actually won the title over the last 30 years?

Everybody wants to make it sound like it's a linear amd absolute progression when it in fact is anything but.
To become a playoff team in NBA doesn't have to take that long. To be Champion, sure I agree. I'm more talking about being a playoff team, and having some success in the playoffs (win a round). That's when you may be able to sign a bigger name and take another step forward. You say it takes 5-8 years, the fact is how many of your picks do you have before you start to aquire established players to take that next step? Let's say we draft Perry Jones or Irving, add him to Davis, Derozan, Bayless is it then time to add to the mix via FA, trade? And if so it probably takes you up a couple notches and you next pick might very well be #15 or lower. Looking at OKC, how many of their top 5 picks are starting for them?
jeffb is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 09:41 AM   #26 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,510
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
To become a playoff team in NBA doesn't have to take that long. To be Champion, sure I agree. I'm more talking about being a playoff team, and having some success in the playoffs (win a round). That's when you may be able to sign a bigger name and take another step forward. You say it takes 5-8 years, the fact is how many of your picks do you have before you start to aquire established players to take that next step? Let's say we draft Perry Jones or Irving, add him to Davis, Derozan, Bayless is it then time to add to the mix via FA, trade? And if so it probably takes you up a couple notches and you next pick might very well be #15 or lower. Looking at OKC, how many of their top 5 picks are starting for them?
I agree competing in the playoffs is not an 8 year project, but using OKC as your model is somewhat misleading. For one, they were rebuilding in Seattle long before they started winnning in OKC. Secondly, they were very fortunate to have a consensus top 2 pick which happened to be the winning pick fall into their lap. Finally, it's unclear at what point OKC becomes a legitimate threat to unseat the top teams in the West to even qualify for a true title shot.

I also think the question of a linear progression is often assumed. If we draft a top 5 pick this year, it's not unfathomable that theplayer is at minimum 2-3 years away from being a solid starter. Take a look at DD and Davis as proof of that. It's a man's league and the top teams are men among boys.

Building a winning culture, to me is more important than title aspirations at this point, because it's more than likely the Raptors and many other teams won't be winning it all for many years. It's like 8 or 9 teams have won it over 30 years.... there is very little parity at the elite level of the NBA.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 09:50 AM   #27 (permalink)
pensive

feat. Otto Neurath
 
Ligeia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,093
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
Exactly why I'm hoping for a lockout and big changes in the CBA. Unrestircted free agency comes too early and teams lose stars way too young. Add in the luxury tax and it becomes a small number of club that can compete. One of these has to change.
Can you tell me how many stars have left via free agency in the last 10 years? The idea of "The Big Free Agency Coup" is a myth, with the exception of LBJ last year. Sign-and-trade of star UFAs is also relatively rare, but at least more common than a star just up and leaving for nothing. Besides, why should a player be locked into a city and organization because of the bounce of a ping-pong ball?

I think the biggest problem in the CBA, from a competitive parity standpoint, is that the luxury tax and the Mid-Level Exception allow strong, big market teams to scoop up players below market value. The Lakers and Celtics are both perfect examples of this, where they have been able to add so much depth to their roster because players are willing to take a discount to play for a championship team in a big market.

The honest truth is that, under any CBA, it has almost always been the same teams at the top.
Ligeia is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 10:31 AM   #28 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 6,321
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ligeia View Post
Can you tell me how many stars have left via free agency in the last 10 years? The idea of "The Big Free Agency Coup" is a myth, with the exception of LBJ last year. Sign-and-trade of star UFAs is also relatively rare, but at least more common than a star just up and leaving for nothing. Besides, why should a player be locked into a city and organization because of the bounce of a ping-pong ball?

I think the biggest problem in the CBA, from a competitive parity standpoint, is that the luxury tax and the Mid-Level Exception allow strong, big market teams to scoop up players below market value. The Lakers and Celtics are both perfect examples of this, where they have been able to add so much depth to their roster because players are willing to take a discount to play for a championship team in a big market.

The honest truth is that, under any CBA, it has almost always been the same teams at the top.
Pretty sure hocke yis showing teams at the top now that could not compete before a hard cap, so it does change for teams that are not managed badly.

Dude... it's hardly a myth. Too hard to list the players that have moved in the entire league that have had an impact since it's a boatload (Shaq being most prominant probabaly). But in Toronto it's McGrady, Camby, Bosh etc. It was way worse when they could afford to leave after 3 years. there might be little they can do here.

At least we agree on the tax. Toronto should have an edge here since it's a a pretty rich franchise but somehow we're just idiots.

PS ... oops I htreadjacked this thing
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 11:07 AM   #29 (permalink)
blah!

nosce te ipsum
 
fancylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: east side.
Posts: 13,266
Representing:
Default

just to clarify, Camby didn't want to leave. He was traded.
fancylad is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 12:58 PM   #30 (permalink)
pensive

feat. Otto Neurath
 
Ligeia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,093
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu View Post
Pretty sure hocke yis showing teams at the top now that could not compete before a hard cap, so it does change for teams that are not managed badly.

Dude... it's hardly a myth. Too hard to list the players that have moved in the entire league that have had an impact since it's a boatload (Shaq being most prominant probabaly). But in Toronto it's McGrady, Camby, Bosh etc. It was way worse when they could afford to leave after 3 years. there might be little they can do here.

At least we agree on the tax. Toronto should have an edge here since it's a a pretty rich franchise but somehow we're just idiots.

PS ... oops I htreadjacked this thing
The reason I asked you to actually take some time and list the stars that have left as UFAs is because, if you had, you would see that it is really not that big. Until this summer, Tracy McGrady was one of the only examples ever of a "max contract" level star leaving via UFA. It just isn't very common to get a star in free agency and that has been understood for a decade now. Look up the facts if you want to confirm it for yourself.

The CBA is designed specifically to keep star players: that is why there are bird rights, 6 year instead of 5 year contracts, and 10% instead of 8% raises. Keep in mind, also, that Shaq's move came before the current CBA, so you shouldn't begrudge the current CBA for that move.

As for the tax, we may not agree as much as you think: I think the Raptors have never been a good enough team to warrant spending into the luxury tax. That's a bit of a value question, though.
Ligeia is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 03:28 PM   #31 (permalink)
thinkin of a master plan

Member
 
MISAM38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 406
Representing:
Default

Quote:
This isn't a video game. You don't walk down to sportchek and pick up a "promising franchise player".
Thats not what im saying. They should pick up guys who they have strong feelings will help them become better instead of trading them a year later after signing them. Like honestly did we need Jermaine O'neal 2 years ago? It was such a stupid trade, and i would have rather kept our draft pick Roy Hibbert. Hes doin so well rite now in the league, whereas as JO is the third center off the bench in Boston. I guess i would have to agree that it is a bit unrealistic to just pick up a franchise player, but at least get some one who is good, and can make a huge difference.
MISAM38 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 03:32 PM   #32 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MISAM38 View Post
Thats not what im saying. They should pick up guys who they have strong feelings will help them become better instead of trading them a year later after signing them. Like honestly did we need Jermaine O'neal 2 years ago? It was such a stupid trade, and i would have rather kept our draft pick Roy Hibbert. Hes doin so well rite now in the league, whereas as JO is the third center off the bench in Boston. I guess i would have to agree that it is a bit unrealistic to just pick up a franchise player, but at least get some one who is good, and can make a huge difference.
everyone was asking for defense and rebounding, and bc went and got a guy who can defend and rebound. he suffered lots of injuries and didn't mesh with Bosh so he shipped him out. that was not a bad signing at the time, it just didn't work.

and hibbert was not our draft pick. we only selected him because that is who indiana requested in the trade. there is no evidence at all to support the idea that we would have picked hibbert if the oneal trade never happened.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 03:37 PM   #33 (permalink)
thinkin of a master plan

Member
 
MISAM38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 406
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Eric Gordon is a franchise player? Have you watched enough Clipper basketball? I think you're oversimplifying everything. You want to overhaul the roster (again), simply pluck who you want out of where you want, like it's EA sports.... the truth of the matter is that any major rebuild effort through the draft is a 5-8 year project, and it's not even a linear one. There will be times when everyone gets excited because it appears that we are turning a corner only to find that we're still very far away from being a perennial contender. At this point, all BC can do is stockpile talent, make efforts to develop that talent, and build towards a competitive culture. We're years away from being good.
He will be a franchise player in due time trust me, and hes not a 5-8 year project. Maybe in 2 or 3 years max from now , hes gonna be a reallly talented player that everyone is gonna wish they had. Unless BC is just delevoping his young talent and only young talent which is Demar and Ed- (Sonny is garbage, wayyyyyy too inconsitent and Amir aint that young)and then get rid of most of his players than maybe its a good plan. But if they plan to keep Bargnani theyre not gonna get anywhere. Were just gonna go in a continous loop of rebuilding, and rebuilding. Then maybe getting better for a few years , then rebuilding again. How much rebuilding can the raps go through. Since they joined the league , 16 years ago, they probably rebuilded around 4 times already. That is wayy too much. thats a rebuild every 4 years average.
MISAM38 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 03:52 PM   #34 (permalink)
thinkin of a master plan

Member
 
MISAM38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 406
Representing:
Default

Quote:
.everyone was asking for defense and rebounding, and bc went and got a guy who can defend and rebound. he suffered lots of injuries and didn't mesh with Bosh so he shipped him out. that was not a bad signing at the time, it just didn't work.

and hibbert was not our draft pick. we only selected him because that is who indiana requested in the trade. there is no evidence at all to support the idea that we would have picked hibbert if the oneal trade never happened.
Yeah ,but JO wasnt even coming off a great rebounding season in Indiana when he went to Toronto, and Bosh was a better rebounder . Its just bad trades that dont make sense. U r rite bout drafting Hibbert, and it was only associated with the Indiana, but Toronto is soooo bad at making draft picks, that they need trades and giveaways to realize what a team we would have been if we had kept hibbert, or drafted Lamarcus Aldridge, or Brandon Roy.
MISAM38 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 03:55 PM   #35 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,510
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MISAM38 View Post
He will be a franchise player in due time trust me, and hes not a 5-8 year project. Maybe in 2 or 3 years max from now , hes gonna be a reallly talented player that everyone is gonna wish they had. Unless BC is just delevoping his young talent and only young talent which is Demar and Ed- (Sonny is garbage, wayyyyyy too inconsitent and Amir aint that young)and then get rid of most of his players than maybe its a good plan. But if they plan to keep Bargnani theyre not gonna get anywhere. Were just gonna go in a continous loop of rebuilding, and rebuilding. Then maybe getting better for a few years , then rebuilding again. How much rebuilding can the raps go through. Since they joined the league , 16 years ago, they probably rebuilded around 4 times already. That is wayy too much. thats a rebuild every 4 years average.
I think you overhype Gordon.... who I also didn't say was a 5-8 year project. You go on to say Amir isn't that young, but he's 23. As far as rebuilding too often, I think you're taking things out of context and manipulating it in your mind to be different than it has actually been. You're talking about assuming that this franchise should have been competitive from the moment it appeared....
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 03:56 PM   #36 (permalink)
www.torontoraptorsforum.com

giant steps
 
'trane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,191
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MISAM38 View Post
Yeah ,but JO wasnt even coming off a great rebounding season in Indiana when he went to Toronto, and Bosh was a better rebounder . Its just bad trades that dont make sense. U r rite bout drafting Hibbert, and it was only associated with the Indiana, but Toronto is soooo bad at making draft picks, that they need trades and giveaways to realize what a team we would have been if we had kept hibbert, or drafted Lamarcus Aldridge, or Brandon Roy.


toronto is not at all 'sooooo bad' at making draft picks. that's simply not true. i'm not sure, anyways, how a franchise can be bad at something like that. it's not like the macot makes that draft choices. it depends on what general manager and staff are in place at the time. colangelo has a very good trade record.

roy would have been a poor pick since he's pretty much done already, and aldridge was completely redundant at the time. gay is the only other reasonable choice at the time, and quite frankly i'm glad we're not the ones paying him a max salary right now.
'trane is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 03:57 PM   #37 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,510
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MISAM38 View Post
Yeah ,but JO wasnt even coming off a great rebounding season in Indiana when he went to Toronto, and Bosh was a better rebounder . Its just bad trades that dont make sense. U r rite bout drafting Hibbert, and it was only associated with the Indiana, but Toronto is soooo bad at making draft picks, that they need trades and giveaways to realize what a team we would have been if we had kept hibbert, or drafted Lamarcus Aldridge, or Brandon Roy.
O'neal went on to help take Miami to the playoffs, and we'd be in a brutal spot if we had selected Roy..... Imagine if we had selected Morrison, Thomas or Sheldon Williams too. Only then are you actually being credible.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 04:01 PM   #38 (permalink)
Mean Muggin with his son

Swollen Member
 
b55bgc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Rock AKA Newfoundland
Posts: 1,377
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
O'neal went on to help take Miami to the playoffs, and we'd be in a brutal spot if we had selected Roy..... Imagine if we had selected Morrison, Thomas or Sheldon Williams too. Only then are you actually being credible.
I think the Raptors have made some great picks in the past 4 years. I cant wait to see who comes here next.

Think about it. Regardless of whether they were flops or not, COllangelo has made some really exciting trades.
Heo Turkoglu - great player, just didnt mesh with our organization
Jermaine O'Neal - Awesome player but his skills were redundant
Shawn Marion - Exciting player who personally didnt want to play here, but played his ass off while he was here.

Who will be coming here next???
b55bgc is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 04:07 PM   #39 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Member
 
MoneyCarlos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: U.S.A / Canada
Posts: 134
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
toronto is not at all 'sooooo bad' at making draft picks. that's simply not true. i'm not sure, anyways, how a franchise can be bad at something like that. it's not like the macot makes that draft choices. it depends on what general manager and staff are in place at the time. colangelo has a very good trade record.

roy would have been a poor pick since he's pretty much done already, and aldridge was completely redundant at the time. gay is the only other reasonable choice at the time, and quite frankly i'm glad we're not the ones paying him a max salary right now.
what ??!! Roy even hurt is million times better than bargnani. what about the first 5 years in the league? toronto would have took giant steps and made it out of second round with Bosh and roy.
aldridge is jordan and Bargnani is antonio daniels.
MoneyCarlos is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2011, 04:09 PM   #40 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,510
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoneyCarlos View Post
what ??!! Roy even hurt is million times better than bargnani. what about the first 5 years in the league? toronto would have took giant steps and made it out of second round with Bosh and roy.
aldridge is jordan and Bargnani is antonio daniels.
has roy made it out of the first round yet? Not sure Raps would have made it past the second round with Roy over the last few years....
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24