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-   -   Colangelo vs. another (ex)Toronto GM (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/colangelo-vs-another-ex-toronto-gm-20083.html)

fancylad 04-21-2011 09:30 AM

Colangelo vs. another (ex)Toronto GM
 
After going through that Wayne Embery thread and taking it all in, i got a-thinking about another Toronto based team and how the change in the general manager role was similar yet different.

When JP Ricciardi was canned everyone was pretty happy. I remember i was exctatic. I actually was on a JP strike where i refused to watch any games pay attention to any Jays info while JP was running the show. I hated him that much. Yes i thought the man was an asshole and that had something to do with it, but i also thought he ran the team very badly.

Now we have Colangelo who's time here really isn't all that different. The are definitely some similarities. He's signed some bad contracts, he's traded for some bad contracts (which to me is pretty much the same thing), he's traded away first rounders... and most importantly his teams have been bad. Actually similarly to Riacciardi Colangelo's teams were for the most part expected to achieve certain goals and they would end up underperforming.

I'd say the biggest difference in the two is that one was an asshole and the other was a golden boy through the media, but does that really make a world of difference. I mean people are up in arms over Colangelo not being back and threatening to stop being Raptor fans.

And that brings me to my last point. I think now more than ever the inferiority complex and the insecurities that are so present in Raptor fans are showing through. The mentality is that Toronto is such a shitty place in the NBA that no one would possibly want to come here to be a general manager is what i am realizing from our own fans. No one in their right mind who was any good at the position would come to the raptors because they ARE NBA siberia right? That's why we absolutely MUST hold on to Colangelo... because he's such a well respected guy in NBA circles and he's so good at his job even though he's sucked at it for more than half his time here. We can't possibly get anyone better. and surely no on ethat we haven't heard of could do better.

anyways .....that's my take of what the majority of raptorland feels itself.

XiaominWu 04-21-2011 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fancylad (Post 532213)
they ARE NBA siberia right?

amazingly, yes..... and there's a good chance that we are permanently fucked, because there is no rational explanation for this to still be the case.

it isn't true in baseball..... certainly not in hockey. so why is it true in the NBA? are the players just that much more ignorant, collectively? 15 years should have been long enough for this fallacy to have been exposed.

jeffb 04-21-2011 09:45 AM

I don't buy the inferiority complex thing. Most of that stuff is just reality when it comes to top american players wanting to play in major american markets which is the caes with 20 other markets in the NBA (ie: Minnesota, Memphis, Charlotte etc...). As for GM's or coaches coming here, i think we'd be able to get them i seriously think that most of this fanbase lacks the confidence in ownership to have the stones or stomach to actually go out and do their do diligence in getting a top notch coach and if this GM goes, to actually go out and not get another GM on the cheap. Take a look at how this current situation is being handled. The ownership is looking amateurish (nothing new there) in not making any kind of commitment either way and the further this goes on unresolved makes the organization look worse and worse, like a circus. Again, that's just reality. For once i'd like to see this ownership commit fully in spending on a real GM AND Coach not just one while cheaping out on the otrher and also spend more on players as well. Everything always just seems half assed.

jeffb 04-21-2011 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XiaominWu (Post 532218)
amazingly, yes..... and there's a good chance that we are permanently fucked, because there is no rational explanation for this to still be the case.

it isn't true in baseball..... certainly not in hockey. so why is it true in the NBA? are the players just that much more ignorant, collectively? 15 years should have been long enough for this fallacy to have been exposed.

Hockey- Name me the last perennial all-star to sign here as a FA. A real top notch player.

Baseball- played in the summer, name the last perennial all-star that signed here. A real top notch FA.

fancylad 04-21-2011 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 532220)
Hockey- Name me the last perennial all-star to sign here as a FA. A real top notch player.

Baseball- played in the summer, name the last perennial all-star that signed here. A real top notch FA.

so you think NHL and MLB athletes perceive Toronto and Canada the same way that NBA athletes do?

Benzo 04-21-2011 09:55 AM

Roger Clemens
Paul Molitor
Dave Winfield
Ricky Henderson

This is off the very top of my head.

Plus there have been countless that have re-signed

Wells
Stieb
Delgado
Alomar
Halliday.


I bet the list the better than more the half the rest of the MLB.

Benzo 04-21-2011 09:56 AM

Oh and great post Fancy, I tend to agree

Benzo 04-21-2011 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 532220)
Hockey- Name me the last perennial all-star to sign here as a FA. A real top notch player.

Baseball- played in the summer, name the last perennial all-star that signed here. A real top notch FA.

Ya know what there were a bunch of leafs as well, sure towards the end of their career but still

Nolan
Joe Nieuwendyk
Mogilny
Lindros
Roberts
Belfour


Say what you want about how they played when they got here, they were all perennial All Stars

jeffb 04-21-2011 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fancylad (Post 532223)
so you think NHL and MLB athletes perceive Toronto and Canada the same way that NBA athletes do?

I never said that. But it's funny that the one team that shouldn't have any problems with FA and should have top players flocking here in droves haven't been able to really attract top notch all-star players. IMO that's even more of a disgrace. You'd think that they would be the Yankees of the NHL, especially prior to the lockout. And when you take that into consideration their infutility seems more egregious. As for MLB, in the last decade name me a top FA to sign here. They signed a few in the 90's when we still had a decent crowd showing up and had championship memories still lingering.

Benzo 04-21-2011 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 532228)
I never said that. But it's funny that the one team that shouldn't have any problems with FA and should have top players flocking here in droves haven't been able to really attract top notch all-star players. IMO that's even more of a disgrace. You'd think that they would be the Yankees of the NHL, especially prior to the lockout. And when you take that into consideration their infutility seems more egregious. As for MLB, in the last decade name me a top FA to sign here. They signed a few in the 90's when we still had a decent crowd showing up and had championship memories still lingering.

A.J Burnett was (arguably) the best pitcher in baseball when he signed here.

jeffb 04-21-2011 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzo (Post 532226)
Ya know what there were a bunch of leafs as well, sure towards the end of their career but still

Nolan
Joe Nieuwendyk
Mogilny
Lindros
Roberts
Belfour


Say what you want about how they played when they got here, they were all perennial All Stars

Towards the end of their careers doesn't equate top notch FA. maybe 5yrs earlier. Wasn't Nolan aquired at the trade deadline? Point is for a team that everyone here seem to say is the universe of hockey, if that's the best list you can come up with you made my point for me, it's sad.

XiaominWu 04-21-2011 10:08 AM

And BJ Ryan was the top closer in the market.

i wasn't really expecting anyone to argue my point when it comes to baseball and hockey. i think it's pretty obvious that the players in those sports don't see Canada the same way (i'm not just talking about toronto, i think the perception has more to do with "being in canada")

jeffb 04-21-2011 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzo (Post 532231)
A.J Burnett was (arguably) the best pitcher in baseball when he signed here.

Good point, you're right there. Turkoglu was arguably the best FA on the market when we signed him also.

Benzo 04-21-2011 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzo (Post 532224)
Roger Clemens
Paul Molitor
Dave Winfield
Ricky Henderson

This is off the very top of my head.

Plus there have been countless that have re-signed

Wells
Stieb
Delgado
Alomar
Halliday.


I bet the list the better than more the half the rest of the MLB.

David Cone

Dave Stewart

Jack Morris


Your fucked Jeff. 90% of baseball would take the jays list in the last 20 years over there own.

jeffb 04-21-2011 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XiaominWu (Post 532233)
And BJ Ryan was the top closer in the market.

i wasn't really expecting anyone to argue my point when it comes to baseball and hockey. i think it's pretty obvious that the players in those sports don't see Canada the same way (i'm not just talking about toronto, i think the perception has more to do with "being in canada")

Obviously, but still their track record in free agency considering all that is pretty horrible. And considering that the perception is better in those sports, some could argue that their deficiencies in signing players is even more sad considering they should have more options, way more in hockey.

Benzo 04-21-2011 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 532236)
Obviously, but still their track record in free agency considering all that is pretty horrible. And considering that the perception is better in those sports, some could argue that their deficiencies in signing players is even more sad considering they should have more options, way more in hockey.

What the fuck...are you mental?

We just gave you a ton of examples, and the best you had was "but still"

The track record for the jays might be the third best in baseball over the last 20 years, and the truth about hockey is, free agents wanted to come here, including Gretzky by the way but Management was full of a bunch nimrods.

XiaominWu 04-21-2011 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 532236)
Obviously, but still their track record in free agency considering all that is pretty horrible. And considering that the perception is better in those sports, some could argue that their deficiencies in signing players is even more sad considering they should have more options, way more in hockey.

yes yes, jeff.... the leafs are a joke of a franchise. i'm so glad you took the time to let us know how you feel about them.

jeffb 04-21-2011 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzo (Post 532235)
David Cone

Dave Stewart

Jack Morris


Your fucked Jeff. 90% of baseball would take the jays list in the last 20 years over there own.

Over the last 15yrs no way in hell. Over a 5yr span when they bought 2 championships, were run extremely well and made amazing trades yes they would.

Ha, i agree that in the 90's they bought a couple championships, made great trades and signed players. I'm talking more recently with all these teams. I think that if the Raptors were championship contenders as well players would want to come here. The perception among NBA players is certainly different then in those leagues i'm not arguing that.

Benzo 04-21-2011 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 532240)
Over the last 15yrs no way in hell. Over a 5yr span when they bought 2 championships, were run extremely well and made amazing trades yes they would.

Ha, i agree that in the 90's they bought a couple championships, made great trades and signed players. I'm talking more recently with all these teams. I think that if the Raptors were championship contenders as well players would want to come here. The perception among NBA players is certainly different then in those leagues i'm not arguing that.

Seriously, you worry me sometimes.....now you are choosing the parameters that defend your argument.

In that case I think Hitler was an all round pretty good guy, and I can prove it, but I am only going to use the evidence that supports my case.

fancylad 04-21-2011 10:21 AM

See? Jeff you are indirectly pointing out just how much of an inferiority complex raptor nation has.

You are trying to maintain some notion that Toronto is in fact a lesser market where no free agents want to play. I see what you are doing by saying it goes beyond basketball (even if it's not really accurate), but it all comes back to Toronto being in Siberia and we should hold on to Colangelo because we should be lucky to have someone of his pedigree even if it's amounted to very little in the end.


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