Colangelo vs. another (ex)Toronto GM - Page 2
Old 04-21-2011, 10:24 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Seriously, you worry me sometimes.....now you are choosing the parameters that defend your argument.

In that case I think Hitler was an all round pretty good guy, and I can prove it, but I am only going to use the evidence that supports my case.
Most of your arguments are players that were here 20yrs ago with the blue Jays, but you're right. And sorry, but the leafs track record in FA is a joke, especially prior to the Cap considering their supposed standing in the sport.
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Old 04-21-2011, 10:31 AM   #22 (permalink)
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See? Jeff you are indirectly pointing out just how much of an inferiority complex raptor nation has.

You are trying to maintain some notion that Toronto is in fact a lesser market where no free agents want to play. I see what you are doing by saying it goes beyond basketball (even if it's not really accurate), but it all comes back to Toronto being in Siberia and we should hold on to Colangelo because we should be lucky to have someone of his pedigree even if it's amounted to very little in the end.
That's reality not really an inferiority complex. Top american players that have options to play in large american markets will choose those markets everytime, that's just being realistic. Colangelo admited that in his presser on Monday. It is what it is with the NBA. Sadly it's the same with 15-20 or so markets in the NBA (ie: Minnesota, Memphis, Charlotte) those cities have the same issues. No team in any sports that has a recent track record of losing can attract top all-star players, and the leafs are a perfect example. They own the market place, can't draft the last 20 years to save their lives haven't developped much in way of consistent winning or developped talent in their system and guess what.......they have struggled to attract a consitent amount of FA.......in this market. Why.....they don't win. Winning cures all, at one point Ray Allan talked about wanting to come here, why...vince was here and we were winning and the future looked bright. But it's hard to start winning in markets like Toronto in the NBA and now in MLB (toronto)because if you don't develop a star or two through the draft, and you aren't winning, good luck. There are over 90 teams in those collective leagues and if you aren't winning or showing development our 3 teams will always struggle.

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Old 04-21-2011, 12:08 PM   #23 (permalink)
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And when you take that into consideration their infutility seems more egregious.

What?
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Old 04-21-2011, 12:18 PM   #24 (permalink)
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That's reality not really an inferiority complex. Top american players that have options to play in large american markets will choose those markets everytime, that's just being realistic. Colangelo admited that in his presser on Monday. It is what it is with the NBA. Sadly it's the same with 15-20 or so markets in the NBA (ie: Minnesota, Memphis, Charlotte) those cities have the same issues. No team in any sports that has a recent track record of losing can attract top all-star players, and the leafs are a perfect example. They own the market place, can't draft the last 20 years to save their lives haven't developped much in way of consistent winning or developped talent in their system and guess what.......they have struggled to attract a consitent amount of FA.......in this market. Why.....they don't win. Winning cures all, at one point Ray Allan talked about wanting to come here, why...vince was here and we were winning and the future looked bright. But it's hard to start winning in markets like Toronto in the NBA and now in MLB (toronto)because if you don't develop a star or two through the draft, and you aren't winning, good luck. There are over 90 teams in those collective leagues and if you aren't winning or showing development our 3 teams will always struggle.
Not neccessarily. Top markets are always redefined in every sport.

By definition of a top market the following NBA teams should've seen some success in the past few years:

Knicks
Clippers
Hawks
Rockets

While, we can argue what success is (I'll say top 8 team in the league record wise), only the Rockets had SOME success (and that's due to luck in the draft with Yao and trading for, not signing, Tracy McGrady). Name me their last biggest free agent acquisition? The Hawks have only recently had some success after 8 years of really sucking and trading for poor contracts and bad players.

You could put Chicago in the same camp. They've only, really recently seen success and signed their biggest free agent this summer. I believe it's their biggest free agent signing to date. Yet, they're one of the top 4 or 5 markets in the US.

It's not even about winning. If we were in the US, I would agree. Winning WOULD cure all then. For this franchise, it's only 1 part of an ingredient.

This franchise was most successful under Vince (and I'll argue may reap some benefits soon). Not ONLY for the wins but for the EXPOSURE he gave us. We got on NBC, we got on ESPN, we entered the US market with the flashiest player in the league. And guess what? That kid in Texas, or Mississippi or wherever, who was disconnected from the market, all of a sudden was wearing RAPTOR gear. You got that discussion, man, I want to be like Vince. You hear it from DeMar (or heard it in his rookie season). That is/was the Carter effect. KD mentioned how he grew up a Raptors fan because of Carter. Had VC maybe stayed and finished his career here, you don't think that could've benefited us?

We were never THAT successful under VC and we were (sometimes) winning under CB4. Why, because in that time, how many US games did we score? 1 against Detroit is my recollection. No, TNT Thursday night games like we had with VC.

So really, it's gotta be a two pronged attack. On one side, you have the basketball side. Their job: WIN. Establish a culture of winning.

On the other side: you have marketing. MARKET this team. It's the first thing Mark Cuban did when he took over Dallas. He MARKETED them across the country and in Canada too. He wanted you to know about Dirk, Nash and Finley. He created buzz. And guess what, 10 years later, players still want to go to Dallas and play there.

That's what this franchise needs, they need to begin winning and market. It's kind of a shame we lost CB4. Because he was good at marketing, we just never won.
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Old 04-21-2011, 02:27 PM   #25 (permalink)
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The common denominator for me is MLSE. When Colangelo was hired I was ecstatic. I saw it not only as a chance to have a respectable GM, but most importantly to sideline Peddie and the influences of the Pension fund. Ultimately though, I don't see the possibility of a good mix for any GM and a safe, conservative, pension fund that is going to see results in a very narrow way. Even if they stay in the background, there still is a lack of a culture where everyone is clearly accountable and on the same page to carry out a plan. That has been my biggest problem with Colangelo - the lack of a perceived plan. But the way things were set up, it was too easy for him to do what he likes to do with constant deal making and think at worst the team would be mediocre, which would make the fund very happy.

Now what if they just get some schmuck? Well Glen Grunwald was a pretty big schmuck. And yet he did prove to have a plan that worked out ok. But I think MLSE really hurt his abilities as well, and he ended up making bad deals just to make a splash. And KO was likely correct when he pointed out the lack of respect from ownership as far recognizing what they had here with only one of 30 NBA teams. Between ownership being all gaga about the chance to mingle with a guy like Vince, and Vince and his entourage doing enough to make it seem like they were running the place, it was a bad mix in an unnecessarily frivolous environment.

We've never had anyone that laid out a plan and was allowed to carry it right through sensibly. And I end as I began this post - MLSE is the common denominator.

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Old 04-21-2011, 03:39 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
Not neccessarily. Top markets are always redefined in every sport.

By definition of a top market the following NBA teams should've seen some success in the past few years:

Knicks
Clippers
Hawks
Rockets

While, we can argue what success is (I'll say top 8 team in the league record wise), only the Rockets had SOME success (and that's due to luck in the draft with Yao and trading for, not signing, Tracy McGrady). Name me their last biggest free agent acquisition? The Hawks have only recently had some success after 8 years of really sucking and trading for poor contracts and bad players.

You could put Chicago in the same camp. They've only, really recently seen success and signed their biggest free agent this summer. I believe it's their biggest free agent signing to date. Yet, they're one of the top 4 or 5 markets in the US.

It's not even about winning. If we were in the US, I would agree. Winning WOULD cure all then. For this franchise, it's only 1 part of an ingredient.

This franchise was most successful under Vince (and I'll argue may reap some benefits soon). Not ONLY for the wins but for the EXPOSURE he gave us. We got on NBC, we got on ESPN, we entered the US market with the flashiest player in the league. And guess what? That kid in Texas, or Mississippi or wherever, who was disconnected from the market, all of a sudden was wearing RAPTOR gear. You got that discussion, man, I want to be like Vince. You hear it from DeMar (or heard it in his rookie season). That is/was the Carter effect. KD mentioned how he grew up a Raptors fan because of Carter. Had VC maybe stayed and finished his career here, you don't think that could've benefited us?

We were never THAT successful under VC and we were (sometimes) winning under CB4. Why, because in that time, how many US games did we score? 1 against Detroit is my recollection. No, TNT Thursday night games like we had with VC.

So really, it's gotta be a two pronged attack. On one side, you have the basketball side. Their job: WIN. Establish a culture of winning.

On the other side: you have marketing. MARKET this team. It's the first thing Mark Cuban did when he took over Dallas. He MARKETED them across the country and in Canada too. He wanted you to know about Dirk, Nash and Finley. He created buzz. And guess what, 10 years later, players still want to go to Dallas and play there.

That's what this franchise needs, they need to begin winning and market. It's kind of a shame we lost CB4. Because he was good at marketing, we just never won.
Great post C.

And great initial post fancy. I agree with both POVs completely.
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Old 04-21-2011, 05:14 PM   #27 (permalink)
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So really, it's gotta be a two pronged attack. On one side, you have the basketball side. Their job: WIN. Establish a culture of winning.

On the other side: you have marketing. MARKET this team. It's the first thing Mark Cuban did when he took over Dallas. He MARKETED them across the country and in Canada too. He wanted you to know about Dirk, Nash and Finley. He created buzz. And guess what, 10 years later, players still want to go to Dallas and play there.

That's what this franchise needs, they need to begin winning and market. It's kind of a shame we lost CB4. Because he was good at marketing, we just never won.
What a well written response.
I particularly enjoyed this part.
Kudos to you sir.
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Old 04-21-2011, 06:32 PM   #28 (permalink)
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yep - I feel the same as Claudius. I think we were on the verge of becoming quite marketable had we improved on the 47 wins. If Bargnani had become what we all hoped and made an impact then there would have been some buzz.

Of course there is one other ingredient - as shown by even an attractive market like Chicago. They needed to free up a ton of cap space to finally make some noise in the Free Agent market. And there had to be a good crop of free agents available. It's just not easy - there's a bit of catching lightning in a bottle, and that doesn't just apply to us - it's everyone - even the Spurs (they are just really good at making that lightning last).

I really hope the CBA doesn't move towards restricting player movement. I don't believe that is a workable answer. I think in that situation we would see players making more trade demands. I really want to see player movement opened up. Get more free agents in the market. Right now, in most years, we see free agents that are available precisely because they aren't worth big contracts from their current teams. Anyone that is close to being worth tied up long term by their own team gets their payday, and that often causes teams to stagnate. So you see a lot of bad contracts and bad situations. Take away that extra money that teams can put out there for their own players, and suddenly you see the market open up and there will be players worth pursuing. Maybe enough of them to allow a bunch of teams to improve. In the meantime it would be nice to see it easier to trade players as well. In the end if any team has a solid plan they are going to be able to compete, instead of waiting to catch lightning in a bottle as far as perfect conditions and the right circumstances go.

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Old 04-22-2011, 06:32 AM   #29 (permalink)
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The main issue with our Raps is being owned by MLSE .... making money is the key driving aspect here and not being a championship team.
Our conservative Canadian approach has alot to do with this ...
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:49 AM   #30 (permalink)
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i'm not canadian, but i think the espn non exposure is also a problem for Raptors and canadian sport.
i wonder if espn canada was create if that could nor change all. because yes exposure is the solution. even for the ownership !
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:48 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Championship contenders are featured on national television in the US. Wherever the team is from.

The Vince Carter phenomenon was a once in a generation occurrence. Spectacular players like that are rare. Though, I suppose Iverson and Kobe were at about the same level in terms of guys that were entertaining no matter how good the team was around them. Most franchises have never had a guy like VC.

There is a Canadian version of ESPN. It's called TSN. The Raptors get more exposure in terms of accessible eyeballs than the vast majority of teams in the NBA.

I don't see many complaints in these forums that there aren't more T-Wolves or Kings games televised in Canada. There are teams that are much worse off than the Raptors as far as media exposure goes.

The Raptors aren't the Lakers or Knicks... So what? Most teams aren't. The Raptors still do better than most.

As far as MLSE goes, I find it a little naive when people complain that they're only interested in making money. Businesses make money. Welcome to the real world. It makes about as much sense to hate a company for making money as hating an iceberg for floating.

Personally, I'd rather the Raptors were able to make money than be an organization that's a billionaire's money pit. What happens when that billionaire loses interest in basketball? The fans should be the ones driving the teams finances, not some lunatic billionaire.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:53 AM   #32 (permalink)
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i'm not canadian, but i think the espn non exposure is also a problem for Raptors and canadian sport.
i wonder if espn canada was create if that could nor change all. because yes exposure is the solution. even for the ownership !
ESPN Canada is TSN pretty much.
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Old 04-22-2011, 07:53 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Are GM Salaries public? Is there a list anywhere?
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