Cleveland vs. Toronto
Old 02-01-2011, 11:27 AM   #1 (permalink)

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Default Cleveland vs. Toronto

So, Cleveland's lost, what, 21 games in a row. Toronto, 12?

So, who's got the easier path to the rebuild? Who'd you rather be?
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:29 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Toronto. I live here.

Plus, we haven't lost an awesome player, just a pretty good one.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:32 AM   #3 (permalink)

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The Cavs know how to tank properly. They're clearly a lot better than they want others to believe. The Raps on the other hand just suck.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:37 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I think we have better young talent...honestly(albeit not a lot of it).

I'd rather have Bayless, Bargnani, Derozan, Johnson and Davis as a core... so I choose TO.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:38 AM   #5 (permalink)

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raps are in a better spot... cavs still have to pay someone to get rid of some contracts.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:40 AM   #6 (permalink)

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i had originally thought that cle was going to have a very tough time rebuilding, but their team salary isn't as bad as i thought. varejao is getting paid too much, but it's not obscene. mo and antawn don't have too many years left, and there aren't too many $4-5 mil guys like boobie gibson. within a couple of years they will be clear of all non-varejao bad salaries, so that puts them in a similar situation to us.

their problems lie in the lack of quality youngsters. they have hickson, but that's about it. their 1st pick this year will help. having derozan, davis and Bargs may give us a leg up, depending on your view of bargs.

neither one of these teams is a free agent destination, so building through the draft is necessary. toronto seems to be one or two youngsters ahead in teh plan.

the reality is that both teams will need a lot of luck, and cleveland is cursed as a sports city.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:41 AM   #7 (permalink)

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Toronto is in a better rebuilding spot due to the fact that we have better youngsters.
Cleveland's only 2 promising young players are boobie gibson and JJ hickson (who arent even that good to begin with), other than that, they have nothing else.
Also, add to that equation the fact that Cleveland isnt selling out any of their games - the fan base is totally gone since Lebron left - and the city itself isnt very appealing, and you have major problems.
Remember the shit situation the raps were in when VC left us? well multiply that by 100 with lebron's departure. Thats what Cleveland is going through currently.
its going to take at least a decade for them to snap out of this.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:44 AM   #8 (permalink)

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to me it seems like the Cavs are literally starting from scratch. We have a few good pieces moving forward. more than they do at least.... but not much more!
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:45 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Better young talent in Toronto. Hickson and Eyenga... meh.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
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When do the Raps play Cleveland at the Q? Wonder how many people would show up for that match-up.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:12 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Players don't want to play in Toronto but I bet you anything that if they had to choose then they will come to Toronto rather than cleveland. So we are in a better position from free agency and we have a solid young core.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:37 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I would rather be the Raps. We have good young players right now and we can get another outta the draft. Cavs suck, they are old and have horrible role players. I still can't believe how LBJ guided that pile of shit to 60 win seasons xD
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:40 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Bayless, Davis, Derozan, Amir, Bargnani>>>>>Hickson, Eyenga, Gibson, Varejao, Graham, Sessions

It'll also come down to who makes the better pick in the summer. But as of right now i'd take our young talent over theirs anyday of the week. Plus we're younger.

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Old 02-01-2011, 01:47 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Raptors have better young talent. Raptors >>>> Cavs
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I would think both teams are equally fucked. I might feel it harder here because I'm a Raptor fan, and all doom and gloom these days. I mean seriously, given all that this team has been through, we lost Vince knowing that this was going to be Bosh's team to lead. VC said as much in his interview with John Thompson. That didn't get us very far. Front office over hauls, philosophical differences, injuries, previous draft fuck-ups and we're back to scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Just who takes over for Bosh. We have a less consistent candidate across the board in Bargnani, and a huge question mark DeRozan.
I really don't like the prospects for this team because it's predicated on the development of a core of players.

I don't like our core that much more than Cleveland's. They don't defend very well, and have a kind of on-off weakest link thing going on. Teams are focusing in hard on Bargnani and Calderon and they're winning. They're our two biggest contract commitments right now. Which to me says a lot more about Colangelo and his vision of the future of this team. Maybe Calderon was a rash move, and maybe Bargnani is worth his ten million, but neither of them defend their positions even adequately, and in this league, having no perimeter defense to go alongside no interior one is like trying to build a house out of dreams and dreams alone.
When exactly are we at our best defensively? When the coach throws out a zone to hide our weakest links. Sometimes its works and sometimes he gets lucky. You can clone a thousand million smarter faster handsomer Tom Thibodeau's and still, with these two guys playing these positions, have the one of the shittiest defenses this league has ever seen.

So, I'd rather have the Raps, but only by a nose hair. Committing the most amount of money, contractually, to your two biggest defensive leaks is ludicrous. Having Reggie out there grabbing rebounds that haven't even occurred hides Bargnani, just like a zone hides Jose. Which begs the question, does anyone else think the whole philosophy of bringing in complementary pieces is what's lead to this whole mess in the first place? And, given Colangelo's commitment to "his guys", going to continue mean that as long as they command what they do in salary, they're getting the PT, which also means more complementary dudes over game changers?
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
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i like our core better
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I'd say the zone hides Bargnani more than anything, and that he has been the guy getting zeroed in on more than anything. Jose was actually providing help to Bargnani a few times last night, and with some success - but how fucked up is that? At least Jose is not completely shying away from his defensive assignments. Andrea doesn't want to look at anybody in the post, and gets blown by everyone else. He doesn't run back in transition while Jose causes turnovers while running back in transition. It would have been nice to have seen Jose perform on the defensive end over the last few years, and the signing did bring a premature promotion to the staring lineup when the guy should be a stellar backup, but the consistent problem for this team is Andrea. Jose will take a backseat if a better pg arrives. There doesn't seem to be any consideration of building around him at this point, and rightly so. Bargnani is not going to play off the bench, and he is not going to play basketball in any way that doesn't require players tailored for specific needs, and that is going to lead nowhere.

So with Andrea in tow, I'd say Cleveland has one over on us. Otherwise - Toronto is headed in a pretty good direction ahead of Cleveland's pace. If by this time next year we still see the big lug tossing airball layups, and fadeaways from three feet out, then I might start to cheer for Cleveland instead. And mostly because he negates so much good play from everyone else, Jose included. And yes - DeRozan still needs to prove himself on the defensive end, but he looks to be headed there.
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:46 PM   #18 (permalink)

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ever since the loss of the ilgauskas, cleveland will never be the same.

they should draft kanter, just to fill the void.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:06 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Claudius View Post
So, Cleveland's lost, what, 21 games in a row. Toronto, 12?

So, who's got the easier path to the rebuild? Who'd you rather be?
Cle major assets:
Antwan Jamison
Anderson Varejao

Tor major assets:

Cle bad contracts:
Mo Williams

TOR bad contracts:
Amir Johnson
Linas Kleiza

The only deperatment we lose in is the bad contracts. Unfortunately, our youth isn't Blake/Eric-esq either...

Tough question Claudius.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'd go with our core, we have a brighter future
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