Chisolm: many different ways to build a winner - Page 2
Old 05-22-2012, 12:44 AM   #21 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,688
Representing:
Default

What's so good about Indiana? They may or may not beat Miami without Bosh and with wade injured. And they'll lose all their cap space this summer, for good. Once they have to pay all their rookies, they'll basically have this exact same team with 2x payroll.

The only way they break through is if they somehow get Deron this summer, otherwise they'll be toast.

I guess it depends on what you want to be, there's nothing wrong in being a team like Atlanta, they will never win anything, but when all is said and done, they will have made the playoffs and won the occasional round for half a decade, which is more than the Raptors did in their entire history.

Still, if you want to win a title, the atlanta/philly/indiana/houston/memphis route is a dead end.
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 12:52 AM   #22 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,688
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
I agree that the draft can certainly be beneficial, but I'd argue that finding talent LATER in the draft and spending wisely in FA are even more important than praying for that top 3 pick.

The best teams are able to retool on the fly while winning and making the playoffs.
that's bs, I keep reading about how clever SAS are and how they find diamonds in the rough etc.

SAS is a fantastic organization and they do have good scouting and are able to draft serviceable players late. But the blairs and george hills of the world are not winning you the title. It's their core that matters. They got insanely lucky in getting duncan and then parker and manu very late in the draft in a time were few people were looking abroad. Those 3 things + the coach and the stable organization are 90% of what made them great.

If the late draft picks are so important, how come they won no titles in the past 5 years (not coming even close)?

Without Duncan, SAS would have exactly 0 titles now, regardless of how well they draft. While it's true that if you fuck up in the draft / free agency, it's very easy to waste even a talent like Duncan (Cleveland and Miami are just a few of the recent examples), it doesn't change the fact that you need to first get that superstar and then worry about everything else.
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 01:34 AM   #23 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

Senior Member
 
pzabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 6,978
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
that's bs, I keep reading about how clever SAS are and how they find diamonds in the rough etc.

SAS is a fantastic organization and they do have good scouting and are able to draft serviceable players late. But the blairs and george hills of the world are not winning you the title. It's their core that matters. They got insanely lucky in getting duncan and then parker and manu very late in the draft in a time were few people were looking abroad. Those 3 things + the coach and the stable organization are 90% of what made them great.

If the late draft picks are so important, how come they won no titles in the past 5 years (not coming even close)?

Without Duncan, SAS would have exactly 0 titles now, regardless of how well they draft. While it's true that if you fuck up in the draft / free agency, it's very easy to waste even a talent like Duncan (Cleveland and Miami are just a few of the recent examples), it doesn't change the fact that you need to first get that superstar and then worry about everything else.
every time I read your posts the more and more I see that you would love being a heat fan haha.

in seriousness though, does Detroit not ring a bell? SA has done incredibly in the league and in the playoffs, even with an aging Duncan. let's face it, he's not superstar anymore. They replenish their core by drafting smart, making smart trades (see stephen jackson) and having the right signings in FA. sure having a superstar is great, but it's a lot less likely to do than building a good core of players and surrounding it with pieces that mesh. and hell, I'd rather win it like that than by getting lucky in the draft.
pzabby is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 01:54 AM   #24 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,744
Representing:
Default

San Antonio was very stable with a great coach long before Tim Duncan appeared. And a good part of Tim's greatness can likely be attributed to landing in such a great organization. Not that he would ever be ordinary, but he was able to have his game raised to a high level by playing in that environment, with a group of players that had all bought in for years already, and within the certainty of their philosophy. Once Parker and Manu came along, they too were raised to a very high level. Now Kawhi looks like he might do the same. This team knows what it wants and how to get there, and they didn't need to lay it all in the lap of their superstar draftee and hope he doesn't eventually bolt.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 09:54 AM   #25 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,688
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
San Antonio was very stable with a great coach long before Tim Duncan appeared. And a good part of Tim's greatness can likely be attributed to landing in such a great organization. Not that he would ever be ordinary, but he was able to have his game raised to a high level by playing in that environment, with a group of players that had all bought in for years already, and within the certainty of their philosophy. Once Parker and Manu came along, they too were raised to a very high level. Now Kawhi looks like he might do the same. This team knows what it wants and how to get there, and they didn't need to lay it all in the lap of their superstar draftee and hope he doesn't eventually bolt.
Agree on all points,like i said, it's very easy to waste a talent like duncan. But it's likely duncan would have won a title regardless, while sas wins nothing without duncan or a similar talent, regardless of how well they draft late.

My point is that you nees both aspects to be a winner, a superplayer and a great get organization. The problem is a small market franchise can rarely get a player like that outside the draft. An once you start making the playoffs, it's game over for drafting superplayers. You may get lucky and steal a title without having a player like that, but that's exceedingly rare.
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 10:06 AM   #26 (permalink)
useless

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,200
Representing:
Default

If you can put together a strong playoff team and stay under the cap, you can attract a superplayer free agent.

It's not easy to do, but with some good rookie contracts on the roster it can be done.

Also, Toronto isn't a small market, it's a large fan base, and the owner's pockets are as deep as anywhere else.
EggsToTheBBQ is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 10:28 AM   #27 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,744
Representing:
Default

SA took a long time to win a championship. But they won 50plus consistently along the way. I have no problem with that kind of formula. Wnning 50+ year after year would make me extremely happy. Then we can look at taking the next step. And it takes some degree of good fortune one way or another to get the ring at the very end. So be it. I just fear seeing this team trying to skip steps and having some short-term success that doesn't payoff long term.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 11:06 AM   #28 (permalink)
making funny and strange dark trade in his mind !!!

Senior Member
 
Bankiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,462
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
SA took a long time to win a championship. But they won 50plus consistently along the way. I have no problem with that kind of formula. Wnning 50+ year after year would make me extremely happy. Then we can look at taking the next step. And it takes some degree of good fortune one way or another to get the ring at the very end. So be it. I just fear seeing this team trying to skip steps and having some short-term success that doesn't payoff long term.
i have the same fear. too quick and we will be once again in the same situation in 3 years. we need to establish a legit culture here. a team culture and a family cuilture, where player would want to stay or come back.
Bankiz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 12:47 PM   #29 (permalink)
waiting for his team to return

Member
 
Grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 483
Representing:
Default

If your definition of a winner is winning a championship, there's one way to do it: Get a superstar/hall of famer. With one exception in the last what, 30 years? Someone show me teams that win without one. We can build great chemistry till the end of time, but without elite talent, it doesn't happen.

At this point I would be ecstatic with a team that consistently made playoffs and had a shot at 2nd and 3rd round.
Grizz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 01:42 PM   #30 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,744
Representing:
Default

Teams that win championships will have Hall of Famers. That's the best way to get into the HOF. But without the right team in place those guys don't win championships and might not get into the Hall as a result.

How do you go about acquiring a Hall of Famer before anyone knows they will be a Hall of Famer yet? You just have to acquire the best talent you can, and look at developing the best role for each of them within a philosophy that nets results. Anything else just leads to wasting talent, and sure enough you will find superstars that get nowhere every year. Show me a team that won a championship without elite level team play on both ends. Show me.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 02:25 PM   #31 (permalink)
waiting for his team to return

Member
 
Grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 483
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
Teams that win championships will have Hall of Famers. That's the best way to get into the HOF. But without the right team in place those guys don't win championships and might not get into the Hall as a result.

How do you go about acquiring a Hall of Famer before anyone knows they will be a Hall of Famer yet? You just have to acquire the best talent you can, and look at developing the best role for each of them within a philosophy that nets results. Anything else just leads to wasting talent, and sure enough you will find superstars that get nowhere every year. Show me a team that won a championship without elite level team play on both ends. Show me.
Good point about the HOF angle, but if you just change that to Superstar I think the point stands. Just look at the the list of past Championship winners and look at the stars on those teams. Without elite level talent you don't win championships.

I of course will not argue with acquiring the best talent we can and develop the organization as best possible, I just think the people that balk at a Memphis/Atlanta level of success need to reconsider considering where we are.
Grizz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 02:44 PM   #32 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,688
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
SA took a long time to win a championship. But they won 50plus consistently along the way. I have no problem with that kind of formula. Wnning 50+ year after year would make me extremely happy. Then we can look at taking the next step. And it takes some degree of good fortune one way or another to get the ring at the very end. So be it. I just fear seeing this team trying to skip steps and having some short-term success that doesn't payoff long term.
they had TD or Robinson in each of those seasons
And their whole team is built through the draft, they don't have a single rotation player who was signed as a FA. There's a reason for that, free agents are almost always overpaid. The only exception are players so good that even a max contract is not value enough.

ALL the good teams are either built through the draft, or through acquiring superstars in free agency. Other than SAS, all the good teams have drafted several years high in the lottery. Memphis, OKC, Clippers, Atlanta and to a lesser extent Philadelphia and Indiana all had a ton of high draft picks before they got to where they are now. And other than OKC and maybe the Clippers, there's very little chance for them to get any better from where they are now, because they didn't have the good fortune to get a stud in any of their bad years.

Also, many of the teams on that list were the laugh of the league when they sucked. Just watch how Kahn will be hailed as a great GM 2-3 years from now when Minesotta finally gets good.

Toronto on the other hand, we had 4 consecutive bad years, but only one was bad enough to give us a top pick. We will have a #5, #8, #9 and #13 pick after this summer. We were fortunate to draft well so far, but the talent level at that position just wasn't good enough.
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 04:06 PM   #33 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Member
 
numbah eleven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 493
Representing:
Default

It's hit or miss with the draft really. Looking at Celtics: sucked since 93 till 2001. Then a good 01-02 season, and then sucked in 02-07. So almost 14 years of disappointment.
numbah eleven is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 04:32 PM   #34 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,744
Representing:
Default

There's nothing terribly wrong with the Memphis or Atlanta model, particularly Memphis which still has all kinds of options. Atlanta suffered from being weak in terms of ownership and ended up keeping guys they should have moved. The NBA really needs to look at making trades of higher level players easier. Under the new CBA there are more possibilities at least. The restricting of player movement does make things more difficult. But that's why a good plan and a foundational philosophy are so important. It can't just be a crapshoot.

For all we know JV will be a very special player and get us headed in the right direction. He was pretty much the best player in the draft so we can't really say we missed out in that respect. My only rel point is that even with the most special of players, there's no easy way to turn into a championship team quickly. The groundwork needs to be laid, and there needs to be patience. If we start complaining about being a treadmill team before we get a sniff of the playoffs, then we're sorta short-circuiting the process.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 06:27 PM   #35 (permalink)
making funny and strange dark trade in his mind !!!

Senior Member
 
Bankiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,462
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz View Post
Good point about the HOF angle, but if you just change that to Superstar I think the point stands. Just look at the the list of past Championship winners and look at the stars on those teams. Without elite level talent you don't win championships.

I of course will not argue with acquiring the best talent we can and develop the organization as best possible, I just think the people that balk at a Memphis/Atlanta level of success need to reconsider considering where we are.
I agree with that.

and about that i think stefanski is a good fit to compensate the too quick actions of BC.

i think that hire, and a good coach, and also an athletic trainer whom knows things, were the first corner stone to create a better organization.

the plan describe by Casey seems reasonable. find some vet (25-30 years), good shooter (unlike Buttler) for cheap i suppose, especially from team whom need capspace in return or a different type of player.
Bankiz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 09:02 PM   #36 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,734
Representing:
Default



George Karl can only shake his head at some of you jabronis

It's so easy in hindisght to look at a winner and say - they had this guy so they won.

Let's just ignore the entire journey. The journey only accounted for...what 99.99999999% of everything. Typically 4-10 years...500-1000 games....200-400 losses....500-1000 practises....None of that has to do with championships when you have the 'man'.

What happens when your superstar isn't as good as another superstar?? You need two superstars??? Maybe a superstar who is in disguise as an average star.
bjjs is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 09:36 PM   #37 (permalink)
useless

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,200
Representing:
Default

Karl's just bitter about MJ beating him in the finals.
EggsToTheBBQ is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2012, 10:47 PM   #38 (permalink)
waiting for his team to return

Member
 
Grizz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 483
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjjs View Post


George Karl can only shake his head at some of you jabronis

It's so easy in hindisght to look at a winner and say - they had this guy so they won.

Let's just ignore the entire journey. The journey only accounted for...what 99.99999999% of everything. Typically 4-10 years...500-1000 games....200-400 losses....500-1000 practises....None of that has to do with championships when you have the 'man'.

What happens when your superstar isn't as good as another superstar?? You need two superstars??? Maybe a superstar who is in disguise as an average star.
Send me a link to all the championships Karl has won with no stars. Then let me know which of these guys you weren't sure if they were studs before they won: Dirk, Kobe, KG, Duncan, Wade/Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Isiah, Magic, Bird, Worthy, Kareem. But hey I'm only going back 30 years.

I am not saying "star=championship". I'm saying "no star=no championship". As far as I can tell, there's been one exception in roughly 40 years, and that took an implosion by the other team. I'd be ecstatic if JoVal became that. Just don't see a championship otherwise.
Grizz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 10:29 AM   #39 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,734
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizz View Post
Send me a link to all the championships Karl has won with no stars. Then let me know which of these guys you weren't sure if they were studs before they won: Dirk, Kobe, KG, Duncan, Wade/Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Isiah, Magic, Bird, Worthy, Kareem. But hey I'm only going back 30 years.

I am not saying "star=championship". I'm saying "no star=no championship". As far as I can tell, there's been one exception in roughly 40 years, and that took an implosion by the other team. I'd be ecstatic if JoVal became that. Just don't see a championship otherwise.
Chicken meet Egg

None of those players were the same player when they won the championship as when they were drafted. What happened to make them the professional players that they became. Organization? Culture? Teammates? Coaching?

How many teams have not had a top 5 pick on their roster over the past 5 years?? 0?

How many 'superstars' never won a championship. Miller, Stockton, Malone, Barkley, LBJ, Ewing, Richmond, Payton, Nash, Iverson...the list goes on and on and on.

Last edited by bjjs; 05-23-2012 at 10:37 AM.
bjjs is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 05-23-2012, 10:50 AM   #40 (permalink)
making funny and strange dark trade in his mind !!!

Senior Member
 
Bankiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,462
Representing:
Default

i think about our way to build a contender we have a base problem.
we are the only foreign team and somehow toronto is a big market (top 5) but with a small market mentality.

i really hope the organization don't skip step on the process. nobody change a culture in only 2 season. it's something for what we need stability and not a HC whom change every 2-3 years.
Bankiz is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24