CHISHOLM: The time has come.......
Old 04-16-2011, 11:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,715
Representing:
Default CHISHOLM: The time has come.......

from TSN - LINK

Quote:
First things first: it was not a mistake to draft Andrea Bargnani number one overall in 2006. In a weak draft where twelve first-round picks aren't even in the NBA anymore, to come away with a seven-footer that is capable of dropping twenty-point games with ease, they did alright. Is Bargnani the best player from his draft? No, he is not. However, in a lottery loaded with busts like Adam Morrison, Tyrus Thomas, Shelden Williams, Patrick O'Bryant, Saer Sene and Hilton Armstrong, to come away with not only a productive player but a legit 20 ppg scorer is commendable.

Now, all that said, it's time to trade Andrea Bargnani.
Quote:
This year Bargnani was supposed to emerge as one of the future cornerstones of this franchise, unburdened from having to play in Chris Bosh's shadow. He was supposed to gain a newfound respect for the less glamourous areas of the job because the Raptors were going to feature him more and they hoped such visibility would coax some self-respect out of him. Instead, it only served to jack-up his field goal attempts at the expense of his rebounding and shot blocking stats. Perhaps if he were a lights-out shooter the team would feel compelled to work around his shortcomings, but the fact is he's one of the least efficient 20 ppg in the NBA this season, with only Russell Westbrook having a FG% below Bargnani amongst that group, but at least Westbrook gets to the line 7.7 times per game (Bargnani only gets there 5.3).

There is also the fact that his offense is coming increasingly from isolation situations, meaning that he's finding his shot less and less within the flow of the team's offense. Only 63.7% of his shots were assisted this season, compared to 75%+ in each of his first four years. His insistence on going one-on-one has led to a dramatic increase in shots from the 16-23 foot range (the dreaded 'long two'), which is basically the laziest shot he could take. So not only does the team's offense need to basically stop to allow him his forays with the ball, but he 'rewards' the team by taking bad shots. To compound matters, Bargnani is also the second-worst 20 ppg scorer in the league this year at using the threat of his scoring to set-up his teammates. His assist percentage ranks behind every 20 ppg this year save one, Dwight Howard, and Howard can be excused since he's a 60% shooter and is typically at the end of most passing cycles.

All of this, though, is just cold data. There will be those who say his 21.4 ppg trumps all and that his versatility as a scorer is too valuable to give away. Whatever. There is a more important side to this story that goes deeper than his numbers; fans don't like him.

To sit at games this season is to hear a barrage of insults hurled at Bargnani's indifferent play. To read the excellent blog community discuss it, they can't wait for the day when Bargnani is in a different uniform. It's not surprising really, considering who Raptor fans have attached themselves to in the team's past.
Quote:
Management seems focused on building a team out of players who want to muck it up in the paint, who want to play through injuries, who want to put in the work to improve their game. If management is truly committed to going in this direction, and they should be because it's actually enjoyable to watch, then they must commit fully by divesting themselves of Andrea Bargnani. A seven-foot, 20 ppg former number-one overall pick will always have a market for his services - always - and it's now time for Toronto to avail themselves of that market before the next training camp convenes.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2011, 11:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
raps are back!

Senior Member
 
ha123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 562
Representing:
Default

I just don't see Bargnani getting traded. At least not this offseason.

But BC has to make a decision on whether or not Bargnani is part of our future or not and soon so we can have a clear sense of where this team is headed.
ha123 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 02:57 AM   #3 (permalink)
back to fold laundry

Senior Member
 
FoldedLaundry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Mississauga
Posts: 1,429
Representing:
Default

I think he can be traded, is he going to be traded season? The first step was letting GMs know h'e available, and BC did that. At least we're going somewhere I hope.
FoldedLaundry is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 03:49 AM   #4 (permalink)
Jonas needs minutes

Senior Member
 
rapsmannn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,697
Representing:
Default

trading Bargs would be easy for the next G.M or Bryan if the time comes

despite the view of raptor fans, alot of G.M's like his game and he could help a ton of teams, I actually believe we would get value back if the Raptors decide to go down that path

a Bosh lead team with Bargs as the second option and Turk as the 3rd gave us 40 wins, with Turk dogging it and Bosh geting injured at the end of hte season

I don't see why a Demar Derozan lead team once he reaching his potential, with a much better Bargs than the one that played with Bosh, and the next high draft pick we'll being geting in the up coming draft can do more,

Ed Davis is geting much better, he could be that shotblocker we need,

i'd say we trade Amir before Bargs, and upgrade one of the bigs(shotblocker), Davis just seems like a much better version of Amir

don't forget Bargs does get better every year even though its a slow progression it still shows he works on his game, he is smart guy and eventually he'll figure it out


Raptors spent how many years developing his game, why would we trade him now and allow another team to enjoy the success the Raptors worked so hard to develop by not giving up on him
rapsmannn is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 03:53 AM   #5 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

Senior Member
 
pzabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 6,973
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rapsmannn View Post
trading Bargs would be easy for the next G.M or Bryan if the time comes

despite the view of raptor fans, alot of G.M's like his game and he could help a ton of teams, I actually believe we would get value back if the Raptors decide to go down that path

a Bosh lead team with Bargs as the second option and Turk as the 3rd gave us 40 wins, with Turk dogging it and Bosh geting injured at the end of hte season

I don't see why a Demar Derozan lead team once he reaching his potential, with a much better Bargs than the one that played with Bosh, and the next high draft pick we'll being geting in the up coming draft can do more,

Ed Davis is geting much better, he could be that shotblocker we need,
i'd say we trade Amir before Bargs, and upgrade one of the bigs(shotblocker), Davis just seems like a much better version of Amir

don't forget Bargs does get better every year even though its a slow progression it still shows he works on his game, he is smart guy and eventually he'll figure it out


Raptors spent how many years developing his game, why would we trade him now and allow another team to enjoy the success the Raptors worked so hard to develop by not giving up on him
because if we dont trade him now, weel be crying the same thing when hes 30. Bargnani has reached his cieling. not his talent ceiling, but rather his effort. theres nothing more that can be done.
pzabby is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 04:08 AM   #6 (permalink)
Jonas needs minutes

Senior Member
 
rapsmannn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,697
Representing:
Default

we developed the guy, we have guys coming up, why trade him now when he can be a piece that helps to the playoffs,

he is a guy who wants to be in Toronto, not a guy who wants to be here until his contract ends and he goes and signs with the Lakers or Heat

trading Bargs would be a mistake for our franchise it will set us back
rapsmannn is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 07:53 AM   #7 (permalink)
making funny and strange dark trade in his mind !!!

Senior Member
 
Bankiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,453
Representing:
Default

i think whatever gm decie about bargs, if he trade him 'and i hope so) i hope we can have a good value for him.

i don't like his attitude, his "not a big deal", but i think he can be one of the best 6th man in a team like orlando or NYK, or a PF in OKC for example.

we can ytade him, but to get the right price that is another story.

i really hope he will not be our pf or center starter next season.
we really need to improve at the 5. especially if we draft a 3 or a 1.

because i don't mind calderon/bayless for one more year, and jj/kleiza too, but barg need to go quickly to be competitive even if we get a young 5 who can developp with the rest of our young roster (Bayless, DD, davis, amir).

Raps gets : wash 1st 2011 + young + speights + booker
wash gets turner + evans
phily gets Bargs + weems + seraphin
Bankiz is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 11:02 AM   #8 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 64
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rapsmannn View Post
we developed the guy, we have guys coming up, why trade him now when he can be a piece that helps to the playoffs,

he is a guy who wants to be in Toronto, not a guy who wants to be here until his contract ends and he goes and signs with the Lakers or Heat

trading Bargs would be a mistake for our franchise it will set us back
I don't see how?

He's awful defensively at a position that is supposed to anchor your defense.

He may be a piece that can get us to the playoffs, but once there, he'll be the one who's mainly responsible for the first round exit.

Defense wins you championships.
10DeRozan10 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 01:12 PM   #9 (permalink)
useless

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,200
Representing:
Default

Damn, first Grange now Chisholm.

Bargs can be a 6th man on a good team, but he might not accept that role as a Raptor.
EggsToTheBBQ is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 01:14 PM   #10 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Scully's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 872
Representing:
Default

I love how everyone thinks this guy has value. There isn't one team who would be up grading by acquiring Andrea. So we are basically shopping a bench player with expectations that we would get a starter in return. The fact remains that this dilemma is far more complex then just trading him.

If we try to resolve this through a trade you have to realize, if we want the center everyone is talking about, ie. defensive stopper/ rebounder, we have to sweeten the deal. What can we use as bait? IMO Bayless and Barbosa (if he uses his player option) and our pick are the three options. I think many of us would have problems giving up those assets. Plus Bayless and Barbosa would require us to take a loss back in a two player deal. You deal the pick and gambling away our long term future.

The Draft looks like even shittier when just looking at 5's. With Jonas Valanciunas & Donatas Motiejunas leading the pack, Both look like Bargs light and lighter. Valanciunas was ripped to shreds in the last scouting report I heard. One he is 18, two he is a stick, three apparently has very little diversity in his offensive ability. So much so that its very hard to find footage of him actually hitting a jump shot.

Free agency also looks just as grim. Even with so many options such as Chandler, Nazr Mohammed, Mark Gasol, Krstic, ect entering the market, because there is also going to be alot of teams looking to fill the exact same role we are. With NY and BOS and DAL, leading the pack and teams like Orlando and the lakers also in the conversation how does a team like toronto compete. Not to mention Memphis, Portland, Miami.

So be prepared this Andrea situation is not so simple, and in all likely hood we are going to be taking a step backwards in the long term. When its all over with I think he is still here in Oct. because his value isn't there. He is not going to put a team over the top in the playoffs and he is not going to sell tickets. At this point we are banking that a ego-maniac coach falls I love with his jumper and thinks he can teach him defense.

Last edited by Scully; 04-17-2011 at 01:17 PM.
Scully is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 02:04 PM   #11 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,715
Representing:
Default

I've got no huge problem if he is back in October. With some added talent around him he might be a better fit than last season. I'd prefer that the move come when it can bring back the best value, and when the impact of upgrading the defense is more essential. So, trade him in November.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 02:11 PM   #12 (permalink)
useless

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,200
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scully View Post
The Draft looks like even shittier when just looking at 5's. With Jonas Valanciunas & Donatas Motiejunas leading the pack, Both look like Bargs light and lighter. Valanciunas was ripped to shreds in the last scouting report I heard. One he is 18, two he is a stick, three apparently has very little diversity in his offensive ability. So much so that its very hard to find footage of him actually hitting a jump shot.
How can you call a guy that doesn't take jump shots Bargnani 2.0?

Valanciunas is listed at 6'11" 240lbs, and is still gaining weight. He's got 30lbs on Ed Davis.

EggsToTheBBQ is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 02:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
baking the cookies of discontent.

Corner 3
 
finstock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 3,140
Representing:
Default

Val is the anti-Bargs. But yes, his game is frighteningly too simple right now (P 'n R). Himself, along with Kanter and Biyombo are the top center prospects - not Montiejunas.
finstock is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 02:26 PM   #14 (permalink)
useless

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,200
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by oneironaught View Post
Val is the anti-Bargs. But yes, his game is frighteningly too simple right now (P 'n R). Himself, along with Kanter and Biyombo are the top center prospects - not Montiejunas.
True - but his game has all the basics for a C that can defend.

He rebounds, blocks shots and hustles.

On offense it's all pick and roll and garbage points. He can hit his free throws, so that's a plus. He's coordinated, so the other parts of his offensive arsenal can come later.

I really don't think we should be looking for an isolation threat from a rookie C, anyways.

You're right that Montiejunas is a PF, not a C. Maybe even a SF/PF.

Kanter seems to be headed towards being more of a big PF also...

Biyombo is much more limited offensively than Jonas, with less length and upside.

Last edited by EggsToTheBBQ; 04-17-2011 at 02:30 PM.
EggsToTheBBQ is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 03:54 PM   #15 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 105
Representing:
Default

WOAH i know Bargs isnt a complete player but that's just harsh he is a very gifted offensive player.....that being said im all for trading him for a legit center
justizzllee is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 04:05 PM   #16 (permalink)
Scrub City

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 744
Representing:
Default

It's pretty tough to trade a guy for someone who plays the same position and get equal/greater value back. However we get a replacement C Id assume it would be in a different transaction
t-bag is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 06:13 PM   #17 (permalink)
playoffs please dont end

FTMFW
 
Shifty.py's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,731
Representing:
Default

Oklahoma pulled off Perkins for Krstic and Green
To get back value we will have to give some away too
Shifty.py is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 07:42 PM   #18 (permalink)
feeling the wind

Senior Member
 
LJkAze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,809
Representing:
Default

Can we trade Barg+1st round pick if we don't get to pick 1-3 to Golden-State for Stephan Curry?
LJkAze is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 07:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
raps are back!

Senior Member
 
ha123's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 562
Representing:
Default

If we draft a PG, a Bayless+Bargnani trade can land us something solid.
ha123 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2011, 08:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
back

Senior Member
 
DuCa00795's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Maratimes
Posts: 3,265
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pzabby View Post
because if we dont trade him now, weel be crying the same thing when hes 30. Bargnani has reached his cieling. not his talent ceiling, but rather his effort. theres nothing more that can be done.
I think people grossly underestimate this guys effort. This is his style, he'll never be like KG or Noah barking when he gets blocks, or getting excited when he drunks, it's the way he is and it works for him. This season has left a lot of sour tastes in peoples mouthes, we went from being a "almost playoff team" to one of the basement teams again. People expected a lot, they wanted him to show emotion like Bosh..but he never did and now people just assume he has no effort. That is the things that I can't stand, scoring 20 + ppg take a hell of a lot of effort.

you can hate on him by saying you don't like his nonchalant attitude on the court, but that's him and that how he'll always be. Look at someone like Melo or KD who look like they are nonchalant all the time. The effort is there, they just aren't emotional at showing it. You can't knock on Bargs saying he has no effort, because scoring the way he does is not all natural.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bankiz View Post
i think whatever gm decie about bargs, if he trade him 'and i hope so) i hope we can have a good value for him.

i don't like his attitude, his "not a big deal", but i think he can be one of the best 6th man in a team like orlando or NYK, or a PF in OKC for example.

we can ytade him, but to get the right price that is another story.

i really hope he will not be our pf or center starter next season.
we really need to improve at the 5. especially if we draft a 3 or a 1.

because i don't mind calderon/bayless for one more year, and jj/kleiza too, but barg need to go quickly to be competitive even if we get a young 5 who can developp with the rest of our young roster (Bayless, DD, davis, amir).

Raps gets : wash 1st 2011 + young + speights + booker
wash gets turner + evans
phily gets Bargs + weems + seraphin
Alright, so lets trade him. Now what? Ed Davis, Reggie Evans and Amir Johnson all must become legitimate offensive threats. Look at the top teams in the league, the Lakers, the Spurs, Chicago, Dallas, Boston, Orlando. They all have at least one of their bigs as their top options on offense. If we trade Bargnani, sure we might improve somewhat defensively, but we'll have absolutely no threats in the post, and that it critical to for top teams in the league. We'll have to become a jump shooting team, could you imagine depending on Demar's, Sonny's and James Johnson's jump shots for 82 games. We would become the worst team in the league.

Instead of getting rid of Andrea we should focus on bringing in another solidified big to play along Andrea or a forward or guard to take some off the offensive burden so he can focus more on his defense. He'll also not have to take these so called bad shots as mentioned in the article because he won't be the defenses center of attention all of the time. The article assumes ceteris paribus which is false, because we know that their are a lot of other factors which affected the season.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 10DeRozan10 View Post
I don't see how?

He's awful defensively at a position that is supposed to anchor your defense.

He may be a piece that can get us to the playoffs, but once there, he'll be the one who's mainly responsible for the first round exit.

Defense wins you championships.
Defense may win you championships, but if you don't have any offense you won't have a shot at the championship. The Raptors need a threat in the post and he is it. If we get rid of him, for a solely defensive minded center we won't score, and teams will shut us down. He needs another prolific scorer to play along side him to he doesn't take all the offensive burden and can focus more on defense. I think this will be the summer for him to improve his defense, and the teams need to build together and work on their defense.

To blame the teams defensive problems on Bargnani if premature, this whole team sucks at defense and need to improve immensely in order to get out of the basement.
DuCa00795 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24