Chisholm: Raptors have a problem on their hands - Page 5
Old 02-06-2012, 12:09 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Sorry dude. SG's don't get the same room 7'1" naturals do.

Just how it goes.

Demar has never shown glimpses of what Bargnani was showing from day one. The two shouldn't be compared.

We wondered if Bargnani would ever seem motivated enough to use the game he already had.

We just wonder if Demar even has a game.
I'll agree with you that Bargnani naturally gets a bit more legroom, but I don't think it has to do with the fact that he's 7 feet as much as it has to do with the fact that he was Colangelos "golden boy".

As for DeMar not showing glimpses? Take a look at the end of last season..take a look at last night against the Heat..take a look at a week ago against the Nets. The kid has shown glimpses..thats for sure. Consistency is the only problem.
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:25 PM   #82 (permalink)
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I can't believe I am about to be the voice of reason here.

I am not a Demar fan, I think he has been incredibly disappointing and has regressed this year from last.

Truth I dont know why its happened, but he is still very very young, and to suggest that he doesn't have the "tools" to be a very good player is crazy. Just as crazy as giving him 10 mil a year though.

I think Demar gets a pass so far this year. New system, being asked to learn new things, being asked to play D.

I think we should wait and see what the second half of this year looks like before we run him out of town.

He is one of 3 players on our team that is even worth thinking about keeping, just drive young man, drive.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:07 PM   #83 (permalink)
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I say we pay what he is worth. That means assessing his market value, and matching. Whether its 5 million a year, or 15. We match.

Way too much potential, and way too young of a player to let walk over a few dollars.
Ya... this is batshit crazy.

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SG's don't get the same room 7'1" naturals do.
This is not.

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Old 02-06-2012, 01:22 PM   #84 (permalink)
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it's weird, there are games Dero looks like he actually hands some good ball handles.. then there are days he looks opposite.

I guess it has to do with confidence
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:59 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Consecutive starts. It's a testament to his resilience, not a commentary on his opportunity. VC started a heck of a lot more games than that, but he was hurt all the time.

Demar has definitely been disappointing, I won't argue that. But there's no point moving him or even judging him now - he's locked into a rookie scale salary for a couple more seasons and then he's restricted and we can let the market decide his value, and decide if we match or not. Sure, everyone on the team is tradeable, but unless you get a very good offer, you gamble on his potential for a couple more years.
good call!

i still think we need give more time to DD as he still 22 years old(consider if he put 4 year in NCAA)

unlike other people who think Talent is most important in NBA,IMO it is the EQ and work ethic to really make a NBA player prosper.

give him some time
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:33 PM   #86 (permalink)
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time will tell.
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:38 PM   #87 (permalink)
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The Miami game was the first game I've been impressed with Emar this season.... and while he wasn't a force defensively, he did look more aware on that end. He actually looked to understand the flow of the game on offense, and even had a blow by offensively by being able to take advantage of LBJ cheating to help.... his best game of the season by far, and it definitely made me more positive on his future impact... though I'm not sold that it's much more than solid starter, I can definitely see him playing Robin to a guy that would be the first Robin to Andrea's Batman!



Also, Bayless is growing on me.... dude wants to win and it shows.... if he can just take fewer 3 point shots off his own dribble
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:39 PM   #88 (permalink)
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that and if he didnt suck. Bayliss is a mess.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:43 PM   #89 (permalink)
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I can definitely see him playing Robin to a guy that would be the first Robin to Andrea's Batman!

Richard Jefferson! He was a solid second Robin to VC and Kenyon Martin while they played first Robin to Kidd's Batman!
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:03 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Listen Bill.
Okay.
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In the time he has been in Toronto, he has been given WAY MORE room to improve than other players in his draft and class.
Based on what? Other guys from the lottery of his draft class have been given a variety of roles. Guys like Evans and Jennings were thrown into starting roles just like Demar and, also like Demar, have been allowed to play through slumps.

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While they have all progressed at a fairly reasonable rate, Derozan regressed.
Wrong. They have not all progressed at a fairly reasonable rate. You don't know what you're talking about. Again, just like the players were given a variety of roles, there progress has taken different forms as well.

Evans has, arguably, regresssed, even after getting healthy. He's not the same guy he was during his rookie year.

Jennings stunk last year. He started hot during the first half of his rookie year, went cold, then looked good for a few games last year, then finished the season shooting BELOW 40%, and now might have figured out how to shoot a mid-range jumper. He's been up and down, similar to Demar.

Thabeet doesn't even play.

Flynn didn't progess much. He showed Minnesota nothing last year. Now he can't even see the court in Houston.

Terrance Williams, another lotto pick, taken just behind Demar, doesn't play much, either.

Also, Harden was not showing much progress during the regular season last year. He actually turned it on later in the year and played well during the playoffs. It was during the playoffs that he really got confident. But his development has not been a linear progression.

Then you have dudes like Blake and Curry who have been pretty much awesome the whole way through.

Just like there has been a variety of roles, there has been a range of development.

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It doesn't faze me a bit that guys here oppose me, they always do. But more often than not I'm correct.
No.

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As far as the Harold Minor comparison. It's as close a comparison you'll see. Both came from USC, played hot shot ball in college but had not outside touch and lacked fundamental skills. Both were hyped for their ability to dunk a basketball, Minor was Baby Jordan, Demar, the Air Apparent. Both struggled on the court to develope past where they were when they arrived in the NBA. the only difference...Harold Minor had bad knee's, and his decline was rapid as he couldn't stay healthy.
Some differences

1 - Harold Miner played 3 full years of college to work on his fundamentals. Much more practice time in college than the pros. Derozan came out after 1 season.

2 - Miner never averaged 19.9 ppg over a 40 game sample during his second season.


3- Miner never had to go through coaching change/system change.
Demar just did.

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Ask yourself this, if Demar Derozan blew out his knee this week, how many of you would be confident that although he had lost a step when he came back, his overall fundamental ability would carry him through, how many of you think he is a good as Grant Hill.
You're moving the goal posts now by comparing an injured Derozan to other 2 guards. You're trying to make this a discussion about a finished product, when some of us are in "wait and see" mode.

Also, it's a poorly framed question for a number of reasons, but I will answer it after explaining why your question sucks.

1-Grant Hill played 4 years of college, and has had years to develop his fundamentals. Demar has not had that time to develop.

2- Grant Hill is an average SG, despite injuries, because he developed SUPERSTAR fundamentals. Nobody here thinks Demar will be a superster.

So, given that I don't expect Demar to be a superstar, I would not expect Derozan to be as fundamentally sound as Grant Hill, if Demar got injured. Grant Hill would probably be a better player, in that scenario.

Quote:
Grant Hill is an average 2 guard. Would you pay a slowed down Deroazan 10 million?
You changed the goal posts. It's a different story if you're talking about a hurt player. If he's hurt when his rookie contract expires, you don't resign him. End of story. We don't have to worry about that until 2013.

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And don't say it isn't significant, it is, you say pay him market value, right now he is the worst SG starting in the NBA.... whats the market value for that?
He's on a rookie contract right now, that's market value. Get a clue. You decide the harder questions in 2013.

I said you pay him market value in 2013-2014 IF he is playing consistently. This is not a decision that has to be made now.

And why even ditch a player on a rookie contract? He's paid peanuts. At the very least you wait and see until 2013. THe only way you don't is if you have the ability to nab a really awesome player via FA or trade. And, I already said I'd be cool with trading Derozan for a guy like Mayo.

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A couple years back guys laughed at me for saying I wanted Harden badly and would take him over Demar any day. I wonder, at this point, how many chuckles would come out of your mouths.
You could find people on both sides. You can always say somebody was laughing about something.

Also, Harden was taken 3rd, well ahead of Demar. Big fucking prediction. Harden killed it at the pre-draft combine. And you even got that wrong, once. You claimed Harden flew under the radar. No he didn't. His stats were great. He was expected to go way ahead of Demar. So what if a few clowns here said negative things? That doesn't mean you're suddenly the bearer of wisdom. It was not a bold prediction to sa that Harden would go ahead of Demar and could easily be the better player.

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So we can wait, and wait we will because god knows, Toronto will hang on to a shitty player for a long time, but to be honest, unless the goal is to be good in 5 years, I don't see why we should bother. I would bet the only reason he is even there still is that there isn't a team out there that will give back anything significant enough to offset the gamble of keeping him.
Yeah, because his ROOKIE SCALE contract is really burdensome.

You're essentially saying why bother, during a rebuilding phase, seeing if a cheap, young prospect can prove himself as we're rebuidling. Yeah, let's give up on him, despite the fact that he costs peanuts.

He costs peanuts, and has a 40+ game sample of scoring 19.9 ppg. So you give up on him and give his minutes away? Doesn't sound very genius meter like.

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Here's a fun bit of numbers for you...
I see a shitty roster, with few players doing anything.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:16 PM   #91 (permalink)
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most people expected demar to lead this team, there is no question to that, maybe not you but most.


all summer it was all about demar kobe comparisons, demar taking the next big step, etc.

you get down to it demar does nothing at an exceptional level that leads one to believe he is a future allstar.

a solid 40 game sample where he got 20 per game is not a big deal at all. you can go down through the history of the nba and see many nonfactor players doing the same sort of thing. maybe not just sgs, but all positions.

the bottom line is this,demar has terrible form on a jumper, has poor handles, lacks alot defensively. yes he has a decent midrange jumper but he has no idea how to get himself off in that regards. a smart player would now how to use the play being run to set himself up as a secondary option on anyplay by moving without the ball.

demar needs the team to set up his midrange for him, and the team cant afford to do that.

maybe its an open, runniing system that will help them but a team that wants to play defense first isnt going to be that type of team.

if team can get a better fit for the system moving forward in moving demar they need to do it.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:35 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Okay.


Based on what? Other guys from the lottery of his draft class have been given a variety of roles. Guys like Evans and Jennings were thrown into starting roles just like Demar and, also like Demar, have been allowed to play through slumps.



Wrong. They have not all progressed at a fairly reasonable rate. You don't know what you're talking about. Again, just like the players were given a variety of roles, there progress has taken different forms as well.

Evans has, arguably, regresssed, even after getting healthy. He's not the same guy he was during his rookie year.

Jennings stunk last year. He started hot during the first half of his rookie year, went cold, then looked good for a few games last year, then finished the season shooting BELOW 40%, and now might have figured out how to shoot a mid-range jumper. He's been up and down, similar to Demar.

Thabeet doesn't even play.

Flynn didn't progess much. He showed Minnesota nothing last year. Now he can't even see the court in Houston.

Terrance Williams, another lotto pick, taken just behind Demar, doesn't play much, either.

Also, Harden was not showing much progress during the regular season last year. He actually turned it on later in the year and played well during the playoffs. It was during the playoffs that he really got confident. But his development has not been a linear progression.

Then you have dudes like Blake and Curry who have been pretty much awesome the whole way through.

Just like there has been a variety of roles, there has been a range of development.



No.



Some differences

1 - Harold Miner played 3 full years of college to work on his fundamentals. Much more practice time in college than the pros. Derozan came out after 1 season.

2 - Miner never averaged 19.9 ppg over a 40 game sample during his second season.


3- Miner never had to go through coaching change/system change.
Demar just did.



You're moving the goal posts now by comparing an injured Derozan to other 2 guards. You're trying to make this a discussion about a finished product, when some of us are in "wait and see" mode.

Also, it's a poorly framed question for a number of reasons, but I will answer it after explaining why your question sucks.

1-Grant Hill played 4 years of college, and has had years to develop his fundamentals. Demar has not had that time to develop.

2- Grant Hill is an average SG, despite injuries, because he developed SUPERSTAR fundamentals. Nobody here thinks Demar will be a superster.

So, given that I don't expect Demar to be a superstar, I would not expect Derozan to be as fundamentally sound as Grant Hill, if Demar got injured. Grant Hill would probably be a better player, in that scenario.



You changed the goal posts. It's a different story if you're talking about a hurt player. If he's hurt when his rookie contract expires, you don't resign him. End of story. We don't have to worry about that until 2013.



He's on a rookie contract right now, that's market value. Get a clue. You decide the harder questions in 2013.

I said you pay him market value in 2013-2014 IF he is playing consistently. This is not a decision that has to be made now.

And why even ditch a player on a rookie contract? He's paid peanuts. At the very least you wait and see until 2013. THe only way you don't is if you have the ability to nab a really awesome player via FA or trade. And, I already said I'd be cool with trading Derozan for a guy like Mayo.



You could find people on both sides. You can always say somebody was laughing about something.

Also, Harden was taken 3rd, well ahead of Demar. Big fucking prediction. Harden killed it at the pre-draft combine. And you even got that wrong, once. You claimed Harden flew under the radar. No he didn't. His stats were great. He was expected to go way ahead of Demar. So what if a few clowns here said negative things? That doesn't mean you're suddenly the bearer of wisdom. It was not a bold prediction to sa that Harden would go ahead of Demar and could easily be the better player.



Yeah, because his ROOKIE SCALE contract is really burdensome.

You're essentially saying why bother, during a rebuilding phase, seeing if a cheap, young prospect can prove himself as we're rebuidling. Yeah, let's give up on him, despite the fact that he costs peanuts.

He costs peanuts, and has a 40+ game sample of scoring 19.9 ppg. So you give up on him and give his minutes away? Doesn't sound very genius meter like.



I see a shitty roster, with few players doing anything.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:20 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:35 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Okay.


Based on what? Other guys from the lottery of his draft class have been given a variety of roles. Guys like Evans and Jennings were thrown into starting roles just like Demar and, also like Demar, have been allowed to play through slumps.



Wrong. They have not all progressed at a fairly reasonable rate. You don't know what you're talking about. Again, just like the players were given a variety of roles, there progress has taken different forms as well.

Evans has, arguably, regresssed, even after getting healthy. He's not the same guy he was during his rookie year.

Jennings stunk last year. He started hot during the first half of his rookie year, went cold, then looked good for a few games last year, then finished the season shooting BELOW 40%, and now might have figured out how to shoot a mid-range jumper. He's been up and down, similar to Demar.

Thabeet doesn't even play.

Flynn didn't progess much. He showed Minnesota nothing last year. Now he can't even see the court in Houston.

Terrance Williams, another lotto pick, taken just behind Demar, doesn't play much, either.

Also, Harden was not showing much progress during the regular season last year. He actually turned it on later in the year and played well during the playoffs. It was during the playoffs that he really got confident. But his development has not been a linear progression.

Then you have dudes like Blake and Curry who have been pretty much awesome the whole way through.

Just like there has been a variety of roles, there has been a range of development.



No.



Some differences

1 - Harold Miner played 3 full years of college to work on his fundamentals. Much more practice time in college than the pros. Derozan came out after 1 season.

2 - Miner never averaged 19.9 ppg over a 40 game sample during his second season.


3- Miner never had to go through coaching change/system change.
Demar just did.



You're moving the goal posts now by comparing an injured Derozan to other 2 guards. You're trying to make this a discussion about a finished product, when some of us are in "wait and see" mode.

Also, it's a poorly framed question for a number of reasons, but I will answer it after explaining why your question sucks.

1-Grant Hill played 4 years of college, and has had years to develop his fundamentals. Demar has not had that time to develop.

2- Grant Hill is an average SG, despite injuries, because he developed SUPERSTAR fundamentals. Nobody here thinks Demar will be a superster.

So, given that I don't expect Demar to be a superstar, I would not expect Derozan to be as fundamentally sound as Grant Hill, if Demar got injured. Grant Hill would probably be a better player, in that scenario.



You changed the goal posts. It's a different story if you're talking about a hurt player. If he's hurt when his rookie contract expires, you don't resign him. End of story. We don't have to worry about that until 2013.



He's on a rookie contract right now, that's market value. Get a clue. You decide the harder questions in 2013.

I said you pay him market value in 2013-2014 IF he is playing consistently. This is not a decision that has to be made now.

And why even ditch a player on a rookie contract? He's paid peanuts. At the very least you wait and see until 2013. THe only way you don't is if you have the ability to nab a really awesome player via FA or trade. And, I already said I'd be cool with trading Derozan for a guy like Mayo.



You could find people on both sides. You can always say somebody was laughing about something.

Also, Harden was taken 3rd, well ahead of Demar. Big fucking prediction. Harden killed it at the pre-draft combine. And you even got that wrong, once. You claimed Harden flew under the radar. No he didn't. His stats were great. He was expected to go way ahead of Demar. So what if a few clowns here said negative things? That doesn't mean you're suddenly the bearer of wisdom. It was not a bold prediction to sa that Harden would go ahead of Demar and could easily be the better player.



Yeah, because his ROOKIE SCALE contract is really burdensome.

You're essentially saying why bother, during a rebuilding phase, seeing if a cheap, young prospect can prove himself as we're rebuidling. Yeah, let's give up on him, despite the fact that he costs peanuts.

He costs peanuts, and has a 40+ game sample of scoring 19.9 ppg. So you give up on him and give his minutes away? Doesn't sound very genius meter like.



I see a shitty roster, with few players doing anything.
a ;ot of writing to say very little.

he's average. thats that.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:44 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:46 PM   #96 (permalink)
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a ;ot of writing to say very little.

he's average. thats that.
Just like Ocho


Average on this team is all we can ask for. lol
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:52 PM   #97 (permalink)
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you guys ar efunny, you remind me of Cobra kai.

lame.

Derozan is an average SG. Y'all are blind as bats...you have home team blinders on.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:56 PM   #98 (permalink)
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One day DeMar DeRozan will be an NBA All Star. When that time comes, I will probably remember the name "Superjudge".
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:58 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Thats how I do it Thug...even bad press is good press.

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Old 02-06-2012, 11:06 PM   #100 (permalink)
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oh and a big ole ps to Billy, read the effin post properly guy, I never said toronto should trade him now, I said they had better not sign him to an inflated contract, but, they will. Cuz he's an athletic freak!

heh.

lots of them in the D-league too.

I think it's funny your Cobra Kai buddies and the 5 other guys there all rally around your 9 paragraph steamer just because it's aimed... poorly at me. It's a very high compliment really....for you that is.

It's still pretty funny though. I anint ever seen so many excuses in one place..oh this guy had more time, this guy was in college longer. Who fucking cares man, THIS guy is starting for your team right now, and those guys are a shit load more productive.

I'm pretty sure the NBA is about wins, not feeling good for a shitter who might be good one day.

So, like I siad, if your goal is to suck for another 3-4 yaears till you can teach Derozan to be a star, by all means, toss the bank at the guy, but I'm not sure toronto has that kind of time. They'd be smart to look to improve in that area.

Oddly, I think I'm more of a Derozan fan than most of you..I'm just realistic. Hell, i want him to explode. I really do. I also Want Bayliss to learn to relax, and I want JV to turn into Blake Griffin, but at some point you need to learn to seperate fact from fiction. Demar Derozan as a star SG in the NBA is fiction.
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