Chisholm: Raptors have a problem on their hands - Page 4
Old 02-05-2012, 11:17 PM   #61 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,744
Representing:
Default

Demar has a lot of character. He plays poorly and he's pissed off. He gets benched and he's embarrassed. He just wants to win. Harold Miner he definitely is not.

He has fantastic bball instincts, but he's struggling with following those instincts while also following a system.

And he was never supposed to be a great scorer, but the pressure to be that guy seems to be there for whatever reason.

And mostly unrelated, there is so much racism and stereotyping in basketball. It's always black players who have low bball iqs. It's always black coaches that don't know there x's & o's. It's all fucking garbage.

A white player would need to be so fucking stupid to be classified as having a low b-ball iq. Dumb as nails. A black player just needs to be unproven and struggling.
bjjs is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 11:19 PM   #62 (permalink)
Captain of the Jamario Moon fan club.

Born Unready
 
Dark Knight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Electric Avenue
Posts: 15,524
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
A white player would need to be so fucking stupid to be classified as having a low b-ball iq. Dumb as nails.


hehe.
Dark Knight is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 11:20 PM   #63 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Superjudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,592
Representing:
Default

woah, dude, lets be clear... nothing Iam saying has to do with race... or smarts. he just seems like an average player to me.
Superjudge is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 11:23 PM   #64 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Superjudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,592
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson Filth View Post
you have a beef because he isn't a superstar.

maybe you should keep your expectation management under control, cause you sound silly making comments like three year funks and harold minor simply because they're so far off base.

did we all watch the same player play last season? we like to think that we're all pretty big basketball fans, right? so, if we watched a lot of basketball and know a lot about player progression, systems and so fore, please tell me why i shouldn't think you're a moron if you're beef is because he isn't a superstar?

last season we watched the demar that didn't have a handle, he didn't create and he didn't play great defence. in which world would you expect him to become a superstar? this season, he's improved in each of those aspects, but seriously, what are you expecting? your beef with demar is that you're dumb and he probably made you look a fool because you told someone somewhere that he was gonna be kobe this season. there's no other explanation.
ok...for you an the 4 little worker bee's that think your post is so damned amazing.... I ask only this.

Would you pay him 10+ million on a contract?


If your answer is no, than your on my side of the equation so really, put your big talk in your pocket. Demar Derozan has never shown to be anything more than average. What effin expectation do I have to woorry about, Im a fan, I have th eluxury of calling it as I see it. He's a gamble that won't pay off, not much different than Gerald Green. Not terrible, hell n0o, and not a bad guy. But I swear to god, I can already see it coming, and if he's to stay, they will pay him large and he simply wont be worth it.
Superjudge is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 11:32 PM   #65 (permalink)
censored

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,772
Representing:
Default

me not believing he's worth ten million a season is not going to justify the crap that comes from your keyboard.
dfunkie1 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2012, 11:44 PM   #66 (permalink)
raptor jesus

Senior Member
 
Don Vito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 3,926
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
ok...for you an the 4 little worker bee's that think your post is so damned amazing.... I ask only this.

Would you pay him 10+ million on a contract?


If your answer is no, than your on my side of the equation so really, put your big talk in your pocket. Demar Derozan has never shown to be anything more than average. What effin expectation do I have to woorry about, Im a fan, I have th eluxury of calling it as I see it. He's a gamble that won't pay off, not much different than Gerald Green. Not terrible, hell n0o, and not a bad guy. But I swear to god, I can already see it coming, and if he's to stay, they will pay him large and he simply wont be worth it.
Don Vito is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 12:00 AM   #67 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,137
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson Filth View Post
me not believing he's worth ten million a season is not going to justify the crap that comes from your keyboard.
Then if he is so great... what would you pay him? And try to think about what it would take... and there is not a chance he takes 5-6 million in the real world as opposed to dreamland os go from there

Last edited by JoeyJoJo Shabbadu; 02-06-2012 at 12:03 AM.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 12:16 AM   #68 (permalink)
in Houstatlantavegas

Scouting Specialist
 
Thug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,771
Representing:
Default

Lol @ the people classifying DeMar DeRozan as an "average" player when he is only 22 years old. Lets look back at what the same people were saying about Andrea when he was 22, 4 years ago. Yeah.

Let's be fair and give DeMar the same cushion that BC gave Andrea, and wait til he's 26 to make any judgments about his game and what kind of player he is.
Thug is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 12:32 AM   #69 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,432
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thug View Post
Lol @ the people classifying DeMar DeRozan as an "average" player when he is only 22 years old. Lets look back at what the same people were saying about Andrea when he was 22, 4 years ago. Yeah.

Let's be fair and give DeMar the same cushion that BC gave Andrea, and wait til he's 26 to make any judgments about his game and what kind of player he is.
So to be clear then, you're good with paying him $10M/yr for the next 4 year in the HOPES that he'll "blossom" like Bargs?

OK.... Again... no one's saying that they wouldn't want DD here if his contract was "reasonable"... but I think it's going to be pretty pricey to keep him.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 01:27 AM   #70 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,287
Representing:
Default

Next to Bargnani there is an incredible talent differential you notice with Demar next to the rest of the team. It's something I noticed from last year along with this year although he has been struggling mightily. I don't see how people say James Johnson or Bayless are more taented.
fk24 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 01:56 AM   #71 (permalink)
in Houstatlantavegas

Scouting Specialist
 
Thug's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 3,771
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
So to be clear then, you're good with paying him $10M/yr for the next 4 year in the HOPES that he'll "blossom" like Bargs?

OK.... Again... no one's saying that they wouldn't want DD here if his contract was "reasonable"... but I think it's going to be pretty pricey to keep him.
I say we pay what he is worth. That means assessing his market value, and matching. Whether its 5 million a year, or 15. We match.

Way too much potential, and way too young of a player to let walk over a few dollars.
Thug is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 02:02 AM   #72 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,287
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thug View Post
I say we pay what he is worth. That means assessing his market value, and matching. Whether its 5 million a year, or 15. We match.

Way too much potential, and way too young of a player to let walk over a few dollars.
If he can recruit Westbrook for us I wouldn't mind overpaying
fk24 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 03:53 AM   #73 (permalink)
the gat'll killya quicker, when I'm drunk off the liquor

The Mara sisters are hot!
 
Bill Haverchuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 10,289
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
ok...for you an the 4 little worker bee's that think your post is so damned amazing.... I ask only this.

Would you pay him 10+ million on a contract?
That question doesn't matter right now, that's the problem with your line of thinking. There's time fo futher development.

He's locked through 2013. That's when an extension would matter. He won't be able to play out his qualifying year until 2013-2014. The decision doesn't have to be made right away. Plenty more time to evaluate. I don't think he's a finished product.


Quote:
If your answer is no, than your on my side of the equation so really, put your big talk in your pocket.
Yes and No are not the only options right now. I think he has Richard Jefferson type potential, not Kobe or any "superstar" shit. If by 2013 he's playing consistently, then yes I'd be willing to pay the market value, which would probalby be around $10 mill.

But I'm also cool with trading him for value. I don't think the guy is amazing, I just think your Harold Minor talk is bull shit. There is a middle ground.


Look, i find his apparent passiveness frustrating sometimes, but the Harold Minor thing is just an exageration.
Bill Haverchuck is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 07:37 AM   #74 (permalink)
is back baby

Large and in charge
 
Snooch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: All up in there
Posts: 8,160
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackson Filth View Post
mid-range jumper, slashing and point in transition have been his bread and butter. i've seen him in far less positioning to utilize any of these skills this season. i'm not going to argue that his shot selection has been less than desirable, but more often than not, he's been put into situations where he's being forced out of his area of comfort and given the ball where the options have been limited jump shots.

i don't get it, to be honest, i don't see why people were expecting so much from him and i don't get why people are being so critical about him. is it because people mentioned his name in the same breathe as vince carter?
i said his midrange was good, but i also said its on him to get himself to desireable positions on the court.

It isnt up to casey.
Snooch is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 09:02 AM   #75 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,432
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thug View Post
I say we pay what he is worth. That means assessing his market value, and matching. Whether its 5 million a year, or 15. We match.

Way too much potential, and way too young of a player to let walk over a few dollars.
$15M..... good Lord... he'd better be the next Kobe for that kind of money.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 09:27 AM   #76 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Superjudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,592
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
Look, i find his apparent passiveness frustrating sometimes, but the Harold Minor thing is just an exageration.
Listen Bill. I'm just being realistic. Derozan came in unproven, a gamble that we hoped was gonna take off. In the time he has been in Toronto, he has been given WAY MORE room to improve than other players in his draft and class. While they have all progressed at a fairly reasonable rate, Derozan regressed. He shows night in and night out that he lacks the basic Basketball fundamentals to compete with the Pro's on a nightly basis. It isn't "bullshit" as some of you like to say my opinions are, hell, it isn't even an opinion, it's a black and white fact you can look at anytime you'd like.

It doesn't faze me a bit that guys here oppose me, they always do. But more often than not I'm correct. And I am right now. I'm not saying you Bill, are grinding, you aren't, but guys here blathering on about Bargnani, and saying we gave him so long to progress...yadda yadda, is irrelevant to the topic at hand. This is not a discussion about whether or not Derozan can be decent in 4 more more years or not, its a discussion about what he is able to produce right now as a starter on the Raptors.

Demar is a good kid, or at least he seems so. I'm sure I'd like him if we met. I think he works hard, and he wants to win. He's just not that good. Wanna wait a few more years for an average at best 2 guy, fine, thats ok, just don't pretend it will ever be more.

As far as the Harold Minor comparison. It's as close a comparison you'll see. Both came from USC, played hot shot ball in college but had not outside touch and lacked fundamental skills. Both were hyped for their ability to dunk a basketball, Minor was Baby Jordan, Demar, the Air Apparent. Both struggled on the court to develope past where they were when they arrived in the NBA. the only difference...Harold Minor had bad knee's, and his decline was rapid as he couldn't stay healthy. Once his athleticism was gone, he had nothing else to back it up. Ask yourself this, if Demar Derozan blew out his knee this week, how many of you would be confident that although he had lost a step when he came back, his overall fundamental ability would carry him through, how many of you think he is a good as Grant Hill. Grant Hill is an average 2 guard. Would you pay a slowed down Deroazan 10 million? And don't say it isn't significant, it is, you say pay him market value, right now he is the worst SG starting in the NBA.... whats the market value for that?

A couple years back guys laughed at me for saying I wanted Harden badly and would take him over Demar any day. I wonder, at this point, how many chuckles would come out of your mouths.

So we can wait, and wait we will because god knows, Toronto will hang on to a shitty player for a long time, but to be honest, unless the goal is to be good in 5 years, I don't see why we should bother. I would bet the only reason he is even there still is that there isn't a team out there that will give back anything significant enough to offset the gamble of keeping him.

Here's a fun bit of numbers for you...

DeMar DeRozan is killing the Raptors | The Wages of Wins Journal
Superjudge is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 09:36 AM   #77 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Superjudge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,592
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thug View Post
Lol @ the people classifying DeMar DeRozan as an "average" player when he is only 22 years old. Lets look back at what the same people were saying about Andrea when he was 22, 4 years ago. Yeah.

Let's be fair and give DeMar the same cushion that BC gave Andrea, and wait til he's 26 to make any judgments about his game and what kind of player he is.
Sorry dude. SG's don't get the same room 7'1" naturals do.

Just how it goes.

Demar has never shown glimpses of what Bargnani was showing from day one. The two shouldn't be compared.

We wondered if Bargnani would ever seem motivated enough to use the game he already had.

We just wonder if Demar even has a game.
Superjudge is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 10:24 AM   #78 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,692
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
Demar has never shown glimpses of what Bargnani was showing from day one. The two shouldn't be compared.

We wondered if Bargnani would ever seem motivated enough to use the game he already had.

We just wonder if Demar even has a game.
that's the key - I'm not too worried if demar is inconsistent, I just want to see more glimpses. Heck, if he explodes into a star the year after he gets his extension, even better for us. We may have gotten very lucky with Bargnani even though a month ago most would have agreed he's way overpaid.

that's why more games like yesterday's where he played decent defense and did some nice things on offense are great. We've seen a few good things last season, but I don't think at any given point there was a clear sense that derozan can be a star.

Right now, the only things Demar has more than the average shooting guard his athletic ability, work ethic, character. His mid-range shooting is about average for a 3rd year guard, but he's below average for a starting SG. His 3pt shooting is horrible (even with the big improvement) and his ball handling, defense and rebounding range from very bad to bad.

That being said, he's way better than what we've seen in January. Asking him to be the main guy on offense is too much of a burden. We've seen how much Andrea struggled last season when he had to be the main guy, and Andrea is a much , much better offensive player. It takes time to adjust to how teams cover you and frankly, I don't think Derozan is ready for that regardless. So he's trying to do to much and he looks bad in the process. Once Andrea returns, he'll be a lot more comfortable and he'll return to posting his usual numbers.

Let's just hope this year for Demar is what the sophomore year was for Bargnani, the low point of his career.
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 12:03 PM   #79 (permalink)
is.....

Tai-Pan
 
m5racer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,903
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
Listen Bill. I'm just being realistic. Derozan came in unproven, a gamble that we hoped was gonna take off. In the time he has been in Toronto, he has been given WAY MORE room to improve than other players in his draft and class. While they have all progressed at a fairly reasonable rate, Derozan regressed. He shows night in and night out that he lacks the basic Basketball fundamentals to compete with the Pro's on a nightly basis. It isn't "bullshit" as some of you like to say my opinions are, hell, it isn't even an opinion, it's a black and white fact you can look at anytime you'd like.



DeMar DeRozan is killing the Raptors | The Wages of Wins Journal
Coulden't have said it better myself. The guy is shooting 38% FG and 28% from 3. This guy is playing like a backup SG right now, and the only reason he has his PPG is beucase he gets starter minutes.

Last nights games posted the most starts as a starter and Demar is #3 on that list as a Raptor, I think he just passed VC.....the kid has had so much opportunity since he got here and is playing his worst ball yet
m5racer is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2012, 12:18 PM   #80 (permalink)
sticking to his guns... is stuck to his guns...

Senior Member

 
DanH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 4,773
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by m5racer View Post
Coulden't have said it better myself. The guy is shooting 38% FG and 28% from 3. This guy is playing like a backup SG right now, and the only reason he has his PPG is beucase he gets starter minutes.

Last nights games posted the most starts as a starter and Demar is #3 on that list as a Raptor, I think he just passed VC.....the kid has had so much opportunity since he got here and is playing his worst ball yet
Consecutive starts. It's a testament to his resilience, not a commentary on his opportunity. VC started a heck of a lot more games than that, but he was hurt all the time.

Demar has definitely been disappointing, I won't argue that. But there's no point moving him or even judging him now - he's locked into a rookie scale salary for a couple more seasons and then he's restricted and we can let the market decide his value, and decide if we match or not. Sure, everyone on the team is tradeable, but unless you get a very good offer, you gamble on his potential for a couple more years.
DanH is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:08 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24