Chisholm Breaks Down BC's Worst Moves - Page 3
Old 05-06-2011, 11:15 AM   #41 (permalink)
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i don't think anyone was a fan of the kapono signing. we just were sold on the possibilities of him being our new dell curry. what we truly needed was a legit second option. bosh's inability to pass out of a double makes that outside threat almost irrelevant.

it's the same thing with JO, we were all sold/hopeful on the idea of what he could bring to the table healthy. the problem was that he wasn't healthy and we gave up a hefty price for a broken player.

whenever these deals were being discussed, we're thinking best possible scenario for the most part. i bet if you look back, you'll see a lot of scepticism towards what turned out to be the reality of the moves.
Maybe so on the Kapono deal, although I recall some being happy about it. As for the JO deal, nobody had to be sold on shit. Fans were salivating about that deal well before the deal was finally made. It was rumoured for weeks and there were hard on's o' plenty.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:18 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
The problem is, the good two-way players he does target aren't willing to come.

Examples:

He wanted Grant Hill before he targeted Kapono. Couldn't get him
Was that how it went? I remember Kapono being signed on the first day and then Hill being targeted afterward. Could be wrong but that's how I remember it.


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He wanted Trevor Ariza before he targeted Turkoglu. Couldn't get him.
Again, I believe he targeted both options (as many teams who have cap space tend to do, it's never just one main guy). And, while Ariza left him, that still doesn't neccessarily mean that Turk was a guy who needed to be targeted.

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When we lost Tyson Chandler to Dallas, I was like "yup, that fits with Raptor history!"
And I wonder if Chandler was simply targeted because of the cap flexibiltiy that move would provide as we were moving Jose in that deal.

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I'd love it if just one person, other than Acie, would acknowledge that Turkoglu was not the first choice.

See, if you guys insist on criticizing Colangelo, at least do it for the right reasons. He does target good, two way players, he just can't get them. The problem is, when Colangelo can't get his first choice, he goes out tries to make a splash or roll the dice some other way. He can't do nothing. That might actually be a more legit criticism. There were a couple of times where doing nothing might have opened up a better opportunity down the road.

If he could get some of the players he wants, I actually think he could have built a decent two-way team.
Really, my point to all of this, is that at no point, did I see a plan being followed up on. I'd argue almost every other GM in the league faces the same problems (to an extent) that BC does here. But why is there this 'pass' then given? Teams lose out on players all the time (and heaven knows what's not being reported). It happens. Fact of the job.

And then why bring in 8 man changes in the off-season? Why continuously search for the magic bean?

I will give him credit now. He's finally targeting specific players (as evidence by the attempt to sign Matt Barnes and extending Amir).
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:19 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I'd argue BC was at his best when he grabbed Rasho, Parker and Garbo in his first offseason (ignoring the Fred Jones signing). He got a vet big. And got some guys with high IQ that would be good fits on this team and compliment what we had.
exactly. Colangelo was at his best when he was playing within himself and not trying to make a splash / big name move.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:20 AM   #44 (permalink)
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i don't think there was, jeff. i remember a lot of people questioning his health and the expense of his contract. i remember liking the idea of it, but i also remember not liking the price we paid and the risk we took. BC knew all this and that's why he tried selling the public on the cap flexibility we'd receive from this deal. unfortunately, we never received the benefits of it and had to give up an additional first rounder to dispose of that valuable soon to be expiring contract.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:20 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Bill Haverchuck View Post
I think this is a question you should be posing to Jeff, since he talked about how the deals looked at the time. My post was more about the fact that he does "target" some desirable players who he simply can't get. When people talk about his supposed vision, they're really talking about his fall-back plans, not what he necessarily believes is the best choice for a course of action.
ya, sorry. it wasn't really a "your" that was directed at you, more hypothically
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:25 AM   #46 (permalink)
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i don't think there was, jeff. i remember a lot of people questioning his health and the expense of his contract. i remember liking the idea of it, but i also remember not liking the price we paid and the risk we took. BC knew all this and that's why he tried selling the public on the cap flexibility we'd receive from this deal. unfortunately, we never received the benefits of it and had to give up an additional first rounder to dispose of that valuable soon to be expiring contract.
Then we remeber things differently. I recall when the rumour came out and I opposed it, I was almost run out of here people thought I was nuts. Which also had something to do with wanting to go after Maggette instead. Lol looking back that wouldn't have been great either.

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Old 05-06-2011, 11:35 AM   #47 (permalink)
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They turned out to be his worst moves, but with the possible exception of Kapono (which i liked at the time, even if we overpayed) the other two moves were very popular and made a shit load of sense when made.
I totally Agree. Must be a slow news day for Chisolm. Christ, the Oneil signing and the Turk signing were heralded as huge aquisitions at the time.
I was totally sold on both. To call them bad, well they may have ended up that way, but you cant knock a guy for trying.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:43 AM   #48 (permalink)
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I totally Agree. Must be a slow news day for Chisolm. Christ, the Oneil signing and the Turk signing were heralded as huge aquisitions at the time.
I was totally sold on both. To call them bad, well they may have ended up that way, but you cant knock a guy for trying.
like i said earlier, you cant excuse a move that didn't pan out because it "looked good at the time". if that was the case ANYONE can be a GM and just make the popular moves and bad moves would be forgiven

GMs are evaluated on how things TURN OUT. not how their moves looked at the time of transaction....
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:44 AM   #49 (permalink)
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I totally Agree. Must be a slow news day for Chisolm. Christ, the Oneil signing and the Turk signing were heralded as huge aquisitions at the time.
I was totally sold on both. To call them bad, well they may have ended up that way, but you cant knock a guy for trying.
Of course we can. He should have been able to see the future. Someone should buy him a crystal ball. Look, none of this matters much because he's as good as gone anyway. He won't be back next season and we'll see what we end up with soon enough as his replacement. And I doubt it'll be good.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:00 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Maybe my memory sucks but signing Kapona was never a problem I thought. Ownership's refusal to spend over the cap in that year and following was the problem. Kapono was a nice luxury and there were ways they could have also added the other pieces they needed.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:23 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Was that how it went? I remember Kapono being signed on the first day and then Hill being targeted afterward. Could be wrong but that's how I remember it.
The agreement with Kapno was announced within the first 24-26 hours. That is true. But for all of June the Raps were rumoured to be a front runner for Grant Hill's services (the Suns and Spurs were also connected). Hill signed with Phoenix for almost nothing, which suggests that it would take nothing more than a 30 second phone call for Hill's agent to say "sorry, not interested anymore". At that point, quickly on to plan B.

But, I must admit, I could be wrong about Hill replacing Kapono. It's certainly possible that the Raps offered Hill fewer dollars and inteded Grant Hill to fill the role that Delfino eventually filled. I can't say for certain.


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Again, I believe he targeted both options (as many teams who have cap space tend to do, it's never just one main guy). And, while Ariza left him, that still doesn't neccessarily mean that Turk was a guy who needed to be targeted.
Ariza was made an offer, though, and that's why I said he was the first target. In terms of talking salary, Ariza's agent was approached first. But, yes, both options were probably on the radar. No GM goes into the summer with only one plan. I was speaking more about preference and who was first choice.

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And I wonder if Chandler was simply targeted because of the cap flexibiltiy that move would provide as we were moving Jose in that deal.
I'd bet that was part of it. But given that the Raps were giving up Reggie in the deal, and Colangelo seemed a little reluctant to use the word "rebuild" last summer, I'm confident that he made that move with the intention of winning some extra ames. It's a little of column A and column B. Depending on what pick we get in the draft, it might turn out to be a blessing in disguise that the trade never happened.

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Really, my point to all of this, is that at no point, did I see a plan being followed up on. I'd argue almost every other GM in the league faces the same problems (to an extent) that BC does here. But why is there this 'pass' then given?
Well, I'm not sure he's being given a total pass. I don't like all his moves. I don't like his reluctance to acknowledge certain shortcomings. However, at least in this thread, I was suggesting that he does try to target some of the right types of players.

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Teams lose out on players all the time (and heaven knows what's not being reported). It happens. Fact of the job.
Right. And far too often fans don't ackowledge that. We have some people on this board who think getting two all-stars on the same team is much easier than it really is. There are some GMs out there who are quite good, but simply can't implement the type of plan they'd like too. Some sucess is dictated by nothing more than available resources.

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Why continuously search for the magic bean?

I'm not sure what you mean by that. All the turnover in the roster?

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Old 05-06-2011, 12:51 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Of course we can. He should have been able to see the future. Someone should buy him a crystal ball. Look, none of this matters much because he's as good as gone anyway. He won't be back next season and we'll see what we end up with soon enough as his replacement. And I doubt it'll be good.
true. knowing the Raptors we'll probably end up with some chump who trades for crappy old injured players and overpays for one dimensional free agents.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:55 PM   #53 (permalink)
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His worst move was his first move, pairing Bargnani with Bosh. Not only was it a bad move but he amplified this by praying they would magically work together each year, despite the fact that they never showed any chemistry or comradery on the court.
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Old 05-06-2011, 01:41 PM   #54 (permalink)
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His worst move was his first move, pairing Bargnani with Bosh. Not only was it a bad move but he amplified this by praying they would magically work together each year, despite the fact that they never showed any chemistry or comradery on the court.
Who needs that with Boshes great abilities (refer to any torap post) & Bargs effective 20ppg??
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Old 05-06-2011, 02:26 PM   #55 (permalink)
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true. knowing the Raptors we'll probably end up with some chump who trades for crappy old injured players and overpays for one dimensional free agents.
If we're lucky. Lol
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:02 PM   #56 (permalink)
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About the Ariza-before-Turkoglu discussion.

I actually think keeping Marion was the first option BC tried. I believe we offered him a $8 mil per contract that he rejected. Then as stated, he pursued Ariza butobviously failed. So Turkoglu was actually Plan C.
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:12 PM   #57 (permalink)
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About the Ariza-before-Turkoglu discussion.

I actually think keeping Marion was the first option BC tried. I believe we offered him a $8 mil per contract that he rejected. Then as stated, he pursued Ariza butobviously failed. So Turkoglu was actually Plan C.
That might be the case.
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Old 05-06-2011, 04:27 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Nobody wants to add Belinelli for Julian Wright?...I know I know
I think Belinelli is a good scorer that they just didn't know how to use right. Mind you he was pretty effective this year with the Hornets. Julian Wright is a hard working guy, but 9th-10th player in your rotation at his best....
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Old 05-06-2011, 07:54 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I also realized with BC one thing. He is very good of drafting young players and mold them to his team i.e he took Nash from the Mavs and build around him by getting, Joe Johnson (from Boston), and drafting Amare, Marion, Barbosa etc...
He is not that good when it comes to put the pieces together of players who have had a few years under their belt. i.e Hedu, JO, Wright, Fred Jones, Dixon etc.... it`s just not his forte.
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Old 05-06-2011, 08:33 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I also realized with BC one thing. He is very good of drafting young players and mold them to his team i.e he took Nash from the Mavs and build around him by getting, Joe Johnson (from Boston), and drafting Amare, Marion, Barbosa etc...
He is not that good when it comes to put the pieces together of players who have had a few years under their belt. i.e Hedu, JO, Wright, Fred Jones, Dixon etc.... it`s just not his forte.
Really, yet you mentioned getting Nash from Dallas and to say he had a few years under his belt by then is a massive understatement. As for his time here, his options are limited and that's also a large understatment. Take a look every summer at the veteran FA in the league, then look at the ones good enough to have options.....then decide how many options there really are from those players and the remaining 2nd-3rd tier players. Then maybe you'll have a bit of an idea what he and every GM in a less desired market has to deal with.
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