Chisholm Breaks Down BC's Worst Moves - Page 2
Old 05-06-2011, 11:13 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Who's fucking fault was it then? He was the one that made the moves!
IMO if a GM goes out and gets the best players available, especially considering the obvious limitations that come with being a GM here that's all I can ask for. Turkoglu for example, did anyone really think he would pull the shit he did? The fact that he didn't pan out was his fault mainly imo. As for the JO deal, it was a risk to get him and everyone knew that and it didn't work out but that was always a possibility and one that most were willing to take on.

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Old 05-06-2011, 11:29 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Who's fucking fault was it then? He was the one that made the moves!
Why does it have to be a "fault".

Why do there need to be negative connotations on moves that don't end up paying off. They were gambles, but the sad truth is that in Toronto you HAVE to make gambles because the quality guys just don't want to come here.

People are too negative.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:30 AM   #23 (permalink)
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IMO if a GM goes out and gets the best players available, especially considering the obvious limitations that come with being a GM here that's all I can ask for. Turkoglu for example, did anyone really think he would pull the shit he did? The fact that he didn't pan out was his fault mainly imo. As for the JO deal, it was a risk to get him and everyone knew that and it didn't work out but that was always a possibility and one that most were willing to take on.
Nope, if the GM goes out and simply gets the best players available, without any idea of how they'll fit in, then he's doing a TERRIBLE job.

What you need is the BEST players to fit YOUR team, which is built in the vision of the GM. The job of the GM is to target those players, regardless of reputation or notoriety of that player.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:33 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:37 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Nope, if the GM goes out and simply gets the best players available, without any idea of how they'll fit in, then he's doing a TERRIBLE job.

What you need is the BEST players to fit YOUR team, which is built in the vision of the GM. The job of the GM is to target those players, regardless of reputation or notoriety of that player.
So needing a Center that plays D, blocks shots, rebounds and getting JO was terrible? So signing the best SF on the market who just played out of his mind in the playoffs was terrible? I suppose our GM needs to be psychic......terrible.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:48 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Jeff, I don't ever recall needing a 3 pt shooter the summer Kapono was signed. The guy was coming off a system which played to his strengths with a dominant post player and a slasher. I remember HATING the deal, because it was full MLE. If we gave half, then great. But, it was terrible.
Not a fan of the Kapono signing, but if you recall there actually was a lot of talk about needing a consistent outside threat after the New jersey series in which they double and triple teamed Bosh and everyone he kicked it out to shit the bed.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:51 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Not a fan of the Kapono signing, but if you recall there actually was a lot of talk about needing a consistent outside threat after the New jersey series in which they double and triple teamed Bosh and he everyone he kicked it out to shit the bed.
That's what I remember as well. Who were our 3pt threats at the time? AP? A declining MoPete who was on his way out?
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:52 AM   #28 (permalink)
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What you need is the BEST players to fit YOUR team, which is built in the vision of the GM. The job of the GM is to target those players, regardless of reputation or notoriety of that player.
The problem is, the good two-way players he does target aren't willing to come.

Examples:

He wanted Grant Hill before he targeted Kapono. Couldn't get him

He wanted Trevor Ariza before he targeted Turkoglu. Couldn't get him.

When we lost Tyson Chandler to Dallas, I was like "yup, that fits with Raptor history!"

I'd love it if just one person, other than Acie, would acknowledge that Turkoglu was not the first choice.

See, if you guys insist on criticizing Colangelo, at least do it for the right reasons. He does target good, two way players, he just can't get them. The problem is, when Colangelo can't get his first choice, he goes out tries to make a splash or roll the dice some other way. He can't do nothing. That might actually be a more legit criticism. There were a couple of times where doing nothing might have opened up a better opportunity down the road.

If he could get some of the players he wants, I actually think he could have built a decent two-way team.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:54 AM   #29 (permalink)
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So needing a Center that plays D, blocks shots, rebounds and getting JO was terrible? So signing the best SF on the market who just played out of his mind in the playoffs was terrible? I suppose our GM needs to be psychic......terrible.
Jermaine oneal was supposed to be a complimentary player to our existing bigs of Bosh and Bargnani. Did he do that? In retrospect it should have been more predictable to see that he wasn't going to succeed given his skill set and playing style was actually pretty similar to bosh's - not complimentary at all. Nevermind that he hobbled in to town on one leg.

Then you have Hedo who played out of his mind for playoffs like you said. and in turn we reward him with the contract of his lifetime. For one playoffs. He was decent before, but his character and his work ethic HAS come been questioned in the past with the kinds and Orlando. It was what it was, and that my friend was HARDLY a sure thing.

Plus your bringing up how he was the best SF on the market... why should this be something to even factor in? Just because something is on the shelf doesn't mean you should buy it.

COlangelo swinging for the fences on two pitches out of the strike zone. I'm not denying that one has to take risks in Colangelo's position, but it's painfully clear that those moves DID NOT WORK out for us. Whenever risk is involved means that there is a likelihood of something bad happening. Well something bad happened. twice. Three times including Kapono.
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:54 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Not a fan of the Kapono signing, but if you recall there actually was a lot of talk about needing a consistent outside threat after the New jersey series in which they double and triple teamed Bosh and everyone he kicked it out to shit the bed.
I defend B.C and I still hate the signing. Getting Delfino made sense, and Carlos dropped more bombs than Krap-oh-please-no
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:55 AM   #31 (permalink)
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IMO if a GM goes out and gets the best players available, especially considering the obvious limitations that come with being a GM here that's all I can ask for. Turkoglu for example, did anyone really think he would pull the shit he did? The fact that he didn't pan out was his fault mainly imo. As for the JO deal, it was a risk to get him and everyone knew that and it didn't work out but that was always a possibility and one that most were willing to take on.
uhhh some people would argue you don't just get the best player available in a draft so let alone in free agency....
if it was just get the best player available why the fuck do we need to pay big money for a GM. anyone can do that!
and with the turk thing, yes, i called it. obviously not to that extent but i said we overpaid and it wasn't going to work out like everyone imagined.

fact of the matter is, yes, a GM's job is based on guess work because we don't know exactly how things are going to turn out when a move is done until it actually happens. but if he gets excused for things that failed with, "they seemed like good moves at the time" or "everyone agreed with those moves". then ANYONE can ge a GM. theres no seperation between professionals and amatures.

as a GM it is ur JOB to build a winning team. whatever way you choose to. failed moves are failed moves.
at ANY job if u failed to do ur job correctly, ur boss may find it understandable one time, two times, three times? doing a bad job even tho whatever circumstances make it understandable still gets you fired...
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Old 05-06-2011, 11:57 AM   #32 (permalink)
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The problem is, the good two-way players he does target aren't willing to come.

Examples:

He wanted Grant Hill before he targeted Kapono. Couldn't get him

He wanted Trevor Ariza before he targeted Turkoglu. Couldn't get him.

When we lost Tyson Chandler to Dallas, I was like "yup, that fits with Raptor history!"

I'd love it if just one person, other than Acie, would acknowledge that Turkoglu was not the first choice.

See, if you guys insist on criticizing Colangelo, at least do it for the right reasons. He does target good, two way players, he just can't get them. The problem is, when Colangelo can't get his first choice, he goes out tries to make a splash or roll the dice some other way. He can't do nothing. That might actually be a more legit criticism. There were a couple of times where doing nothing might have opened up a better opportunity down the road.

If he could get some of the players he wants, I actually think he could have built a decent two-way team.
sometimes the best move is the one you don't make. and thats BC's fault for failing to realize that.

GM's are judge are on how their moves TURNED OUT. not how they looked at the time....if ur gonna find it acceptable for a move that failed because it seemed alright at the time it was made. then should we fire a GM for making an unpopular move at the time but then turned out well?

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Old 05-06-2011, 12:01 PM   #33 (permalink)
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i don't think anyone was a fan of the kapono signing. we just were sold on the possibilities of him being our new dell curry. what we truly needed was a legit second option. bosh's inability to pass out of a double makes that outside threat almost irrelevant.

it's the same thing with JO, we were all sold/hopeful on the idea of what he could bring to the table healthy. the problem was that he wasn't healthy and we gave up a hefty price for a broken player.

whenever these deals were being discussed, we're thinking best possible scenario for the most part. i bet if you look back, you'll see a lot of scepticism towards what turned out to be the reality of the moves.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:01 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I defend B.C and I still hate the signing. Getting Delfino made sense, and Carlos dropped more bombs than Krap-oh-please-no
Not really Kapono's fault that Smitch tried to turn him into a slasher.

He still shot 49% from the field and 48% from 3.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:04 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Not really Kapono's fault that Smitch tried to turn him into a slasher.

He still shot 49% from the field and 48% from 3.
Good point. But the contract was ugly and, more importantly, in my opinion, Delfino was a better overall player who was very capable at stretching the floor.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:07 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Not a fan of the Kapono signing, but if you recall there actually was a lot of talk about needing a consistent outside threat after the New jersey series in which they double and triple teamed Bosh and everyone he kicked it out to shit the bed.
You may be right, I honestly just can't remember.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:07 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Jermaine oneal was supposed to be a complimentary player to our existing bigs of Bosh and Bargnani. Did he do that? In retrospect it should have been more predictable to see that he wasn't going to succeed given his skill set and playing style was actually pretty similar to bosh's - not complimentary at all. Nevermind that he hobbled in to town on one leg.

Then you have Hedo who played out of his mind for playoffs like you said. and in turn we reward him with the contract of his lifetime. For one playoffs. He was decent before, but his character and his work ethic HAS come been questioned in the past with the kinds and Orlando. It was what it was, and that my friend was HARDLY a sure thing.

Plus your bringing up how he was the best SF on the market... why should this be something to even factor in? Just because something is on the shelf doesn't mean you should buy it.

COlangelo swinging for the fences on two pitches out of the strike zone. I'm not denying that one has to take risks in Colangelo's position, but it's painfully clear that those moves DID NOT WORK out for us. Whenever risk is involved means that there is a likelihood of something bad happening. Well something bad happened. twice. Three times including Kapono.
Well if you recall I was far from sold on the JO deal, but understood why it was made. The turkoglu deal and why his being the best SF on the market needs to be factored in for sure. We nneded a SF and he was the best one on the open market why wouldn't that be factored in? As for the Kapono move I agree that he was overpayed, but that happens all time in markets like ours, hell in most markets but we were in need of a 3pt shooter and he signed the best 3pt shooter on the market. Believe me, I see where you're coming from and BC has to be held accountable afterall he made the moves. But I also look at the circumstances at the time and if I thought they were good moves that made sense at the time into consideratiion on top of the obvious limitations in getting top players to come here.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:08 PM   #38 (permalink)
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i don't think anyone was a fan of the kapono signing. we just were sold on the possibilities of him being our new dell curry. what we truly needed was a legit second option. bosh's inability to pass out of a double makes that outside threat almost irrelevant.

it's the same thing with JO, we were all sold/hopeful on the idea of what he could bring to the table healthy. the problem was that he wasn't healthy and we gave up a hefty price for a broken player.

whenever these deals were being discussed, we're thinking best possible scenario for the most part. i bet if you look back, you'll see a lot of scepticism towards what turned out to be the reality of the moves.
perfectly put.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:11 PM   #39 (permalink)
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So needing a Center that plays D, blocks shots, rebounds and getting JO was terrible? So signing the best SF on the market who just played out of his mind in the playoffs was terrible? I suppose our GM needs to be psychic......terrible.
I'm not saying getting JO was terrible, but you also need to look at his history of being an offensive black hole (which he was here) and need to see if that type of player would gel with what he had here.

Grabbing a SF who needs to be a ball handler, when you have a PG here who dominates the ball as well as a PF who needs the ball to be effective, yeah, I kinda wonder, about it. Certain players look good on certain teams. Turk, played well with Jameer because really Turk ran the offense. Look at how poorly he did in Phoenix because of that same problem of not running the offence.

I'd argue BC was at his best when he grabbed Rasho, Parker and Garbo in his first offseason (ignoring the Fred Jones signing). He got a vet big. And got some guys with high IQ that would be good fits on this team and compliment what we had.
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Old 05-06-2011, 12:13 PM   #40 (permalink)
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sometimes the best move is the one you don't make. and thats BC's fault for failing to realize that.
Sometimes this is true. Less is more.

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if ur gonna find it acceptable for a move that failed because it seemed alright at the time it was made. then should we fire a GM for making an unpopular move at the time but then turned out well?
I think this is a question you should be posing to Jeff, since he talked about how the deals looked at the time. My post was more about the fact that he does "target" some desirable players who he simply can't get. When people talk about his supposed vision, they're really talking about his fall-back plans, not what he necessarily believes is the best choice for a course of action.
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