Changes might be coming - Page 4
Old 11-08-2012, 02:27 PM   #61 (permalink)
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+/- ???


Really? 5 games in, this is what we're discussing with a team with 9 new players?
A record of 1-5 and what has been consistent is that the team is getting blown out in the first quarter. In a fight, if you're opponent is landing some hard punches in the first round, you counter and make adjustments throught the fight.
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:27 PM   #62 (permalink)
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He and Fields share the blame imo.
and DD hasn't had a slow first quarter this year?
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:30 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Bargnani hasn't really been the issue in the first quarters as much as you'd think. I doubt it's AB out of the starting unit.
Understood, if this were the case,Bargs being recruited for the second unit,its probably more about making him comfortable and maximizing his production which looks most effective alongside Calderon. We gotta wait until Saturday I guess. I know things will be fine,I expected them to be 2-3 after 5 games,1 game under that prediction doesn't mean panic mode. Toronto could've easily been 3-2.
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:42 PM   #64 (permalink)
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If its not Fields than I think it may be Bargnani to the second unit to play with Calderon and provide offense off the bench. So far,AB has been out of sync with Lowry and DeRozan in the first unit. He'd still get starter minutes throught the entire game but maybe Casey wants more energy from the tip off and Amir Johnson could add that over Bargs.
I was thinking about Bargs playing with JC on the second line - get him playing with JC again and run some PnR's and more known plays. Then DC could ease the transition with Lowry. Being that both JV and Gray are big strong centers, Bargs should be able to produce at the 4, especially against the other teams' bench. Probably won't happen and we may see a Lowry/DD/AA/Bargs/JV with JC/Fields/LK/Amir/Gray coming off the bench. I'm a little worried that there won't be enough scoring off the bench but not like DC won't switch it up as the game goes.
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:51 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Casey needs rebounds , in case you missed the Dallas game. I think Amir starts and Val comes in with foul troubles and second unit til he gets more confidence and experience. They need a boost to start with more energy.
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:52 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I was thinking about Bargs playing with JC on the second line - get him playing with JC again and run some PnR's and more known plays. Then DC could ease the transition with Lowry. Being that both JV and Gray are big strong centers, Bargs should be able to produce at the 4, especially against the other teams' bench. Probably won't happen and we may see a Lowry/DD/AA/Bargs/JV with JC/Fields/LK/Amir/Gray coming off the bench. I'm a little worried that there won't be enough scoring off the bench but not like DC won't switch it up as the game goes.
Yea,I wouldn't view Bargnani coming off the bench as a demotion,its strategy. It may be what's best for him and the team. Two players in the top 30 in the NBA came off the bench(Ginobili and Harden formerly),it shouldn't be ruled out.

I don't know how loud the public outcry has gotten but I wouldn't be surprised if Fields gets a couple of DNP-CD's....he's lucky Sam isn't the coach,he would've tore him a new one in a post game presser already
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Old 11-08-2012, 02:55 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Just curious, what's Bargnani's first quarter scoring like?
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:08 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Clearly its Landry.....Kleiza will start when he returns Saturday
its clearly landry but its not going to be kleiza, he hasn't even played a game yet this season and there was a clear regression in his play from the summer to the preseason, casey isn't just going to start a guy who hasn't proved a thing yet this season

if its landry then its likely alan anderson
if its JV then its likely amir, especially now that lowry is hurt and jose is start, the 2 of them work well together so he might want to start amir so the team has a good start on offense
i'm not ruling out the possibility that both happen
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:10 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Where did our 5th loss come from?
oh be patient, it's on it's way!
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:29 PM   #70 (permalink)
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And right on cue...c'mon DanH, not everything is stats....I know you love them but stats do not take into account how other teams adjust to the players, exploiting their weaknesses, etc. There is just no way stats can address that after 5 games - I like stats but simply using them 'only' is misleading
I guess you decided not to read my post. Since the entire point of it was that a) objectively speaking, without stats, anyone can see that something needs to change, b) the stats are flawed due to a small sample size, and c) why not try what the stats are saying just to see if it works?

And of course stats don't capture adjustments, strategies, etc. But guess what? Our current lineup, it has been adjusted to. The weaknesses in our starting lineup are being exploited. And the stats, limited as they are, suggest that the players I listed are not being exploited to the same extent.

Why not try it? Why stick with the players who have a) looked the worst and b) have the worst stats, instead of utilizing the players who have looked better and the stats back it up?

I never start with stats. I start with a premise and see what the stats say to support or deny it. And my premise was that whatever the heck we've been watching is not quality basketball. So I found an alternative. I'll never get to see it tried, but I'd certainly like to.
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:36 PM   #71 (permalink)
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Yep - I noticed and appreciated the use of the eye test. And I agree with it.

I just think players got slotted into roles that don't make the most of what is here collectively. Go back to the idea of letting the players decide based on their effort and play.
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Old 11-08-2012, 03:45 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I guess you decided not to read my post. Since the entire point of it was that a) objectively speaking, without stats, anyone can see that something needs to change, b) the stats are flawed due to a small sample size, and c) why not try what the stats are saying just to see if it works?

And of course stats don't capture adjustments, strategies, etc. But guess what? Our current lineup, it has been adjusted to. The weaknesses in our starting lineup are being exploited. And the stats, limited as they are, suggest that the players I listed are not being exploited to the same extent.

Why not try it? Why stick with the players who have a) looked the worst and b) have the worst stats, instead of utilizing the players who have looked better and the stats back it up?

I never start with stats. I start with a premise and see what the stats say to support or deny it. And my premise was that whatever the heck we've been watching is not quality basketball. So I found an alternative. I'll never get to see it tried, but I'd certainly like to.
That's the funniest thing I've read from anyone here in a while and certainly spot on.

Fair enough. Can't be any worse than what the team has been producing lately and I do agree, other teams have quickly adjusted to our starting line-ups weaknesses - mainly lack of 3's and offense from our SF. I think the Raps would be tougher if Bargs could hit the 3 and if Landry could hit something. Other teams are just sagging into the middle and until this team starts hitting the mid range and farther consistently, this team will continue to struggle for wins.
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:12 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Amir, Davis and AA played down the stretch to stretch out a lead in our one win. That was against starters. I thought that was a really nice precursor to seeing this team gain some definition. I don't know what the fuck is going on now. Casey is just throwing throwing players out there randomly. Ed must have done something in his five minutes last night to warrant sitting the rest of the game, but it's hard to see how it could have been worse than what most of the starters did. I hope that was just Casey pushing a button. Because otherwise he's really losing me fast.
Lol come on man, the Timberwolves played like absolute garbage that night. We were gifted a victory with all those turnovers. Missing Love, Barrea, Rubio etc.. Could have played d leaguers and still won that game.
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:17 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Lol come on man, the Timberwolves played like absolute garbage that night. We were gifted a victory with all those turnovers. Missing Love, Barrea, Rubio etc.. Could have played d leaguers and still won that game.
And Dallas was that much better?

How did that game against Minny start? Not so good.
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:23 PM   #75 (permalink)
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And Dallas was that much better?

How did that game against Minny start? Not so good.
Playing in Dallas on a b2b and 3 in 4 nights after getting destroyed by the Thunder, vs playing at home vs the Timberwolves with a nights rest.
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Old 11-08-2012, 04:40 PM   #76 (permalink)
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You may notice how I used about 5 different stats, including plus-minus, to come to my conclusions. Plus-minus in isolation is useless (like many other stats) - but, like many other stats, it can be a piece of the puzzle.
come on, over 5 games no stat is relevant in the slightest. Orlando played well, both objectively and subjectively, should we infer they are a contender now?

So Bargnani had 3 bad shooting games out of 5 and you're concluding he can't shoot anymore? He is playing poorly, but he's still a better offensive weapon than anybody else not named lowry or derozan. At least he needs to be guarded and once he has the ball, he still draws all the attention. When JV or Ed or even Amir have the ball, the defenses give them wide open looks and dare them to shoot.

The other thing I don't really get is what exactly were we expecting, we went against 5 projected playoff teams, 2 B2Bs, 3 on the road and won a blowout, lost a blowout and played 3 very close games. We are a team that is projected to win 30 games and most agreed that winning 40 or more would require EVERYTHING to go perfect, and right now almost nothing is.

If you want to bench Bargnani as punishment for his lapses on defense, fine - but to expect the team to play better by replacing him with one of the bench guys is not realistic. Especially when our bench has been very underwhelming as well.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:04 PM   #77 (permalink)
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The bench has only been underwhelming to the extent that they have been completely undefined. Bargnani could help in defining it. It's not about punishing him, it's about making the most sense of what is here.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:23 PM   #78 (permalink)
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The bench has only been underwhelming to the extent that they have been completely undefined. Bargnani could help in defining it. It's not about punishing him, it's about making the most sense of what is here.
You keep pushing this agenda. I actually think bringing in Dominic to the starting 5 could help define it... or even sliding Demar over to the 3 and starting Ross.... though that might be a little more problematic at first. There are multiple ways to slice a peach, just so happens that we've got a very bruised peach here. I think you're overly optimistic on the alternatives at PF but we both know that we disagree on this point. As much as I love JV, I'm not sure it's wise to expect too much offensively at this point and that's what taking AB away would result in without really bringing in anybody that is really won't get pushed around either.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:31 PM   #79 (permalink)
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This team will do everything it can to coddle and cover up for Bargnani as long as he is here.
True. What will eventually lead to a blow up.
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Old 11-08-2012, 05:32 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I honestly think that we have been losing games on the perimeter other than in the post. All those open 3s vs OKC. We can't rotate properly and except for Lowry players can't stand in front of their opponents.
As I said before the problem of starting a combo of JV,Amir,Ed is that none of them can shot the ball very well, so the post is gonna be crowded for them to do something.
Unless one of our SF starts hitting 3s consistently this isn't going to work and actually would damage point in penetration from DD and Lowry.
For me right now starting Amir and Bargs is the best solution. Among our bench bigs Amir is the one with the best J, so it means he can leave space for Bargs to post up being somewhat usefull or gets more space in the post if Bargs is on the perimeter and together they can drag opponents away from the under the rim for DD and Lowry penetration.
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