CBS Sports: Valanciunas new physicality on display - Page 3
Old 07-16-2013, 10:58 PM   #41 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Membres supérieurs
 
DocHoliday99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 4,789
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfunkie1 View Post
wow! what a fucking awesome revelation! please enlighten me more with your unfound wisdom and great mind power. were you levitating when you responded? i need to know the greatness of your mind!
That was a bit of a knee jerk over a simple comment.
DocHoliday99 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2013, 11:31 PM   #42 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

Senior Member
 
pzabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 6,951
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
I'm not sure how anything was proven regarding Bosh. He carried a team here for years, with shitnagni weighing him down throughout. Not a great comparison in any case. Two very different players with two very different kinds of ceilings. And right now we're looking at a dude in summer league, which is a terrible thing to base any kind of comparison on.
bargnani was actually a positive in his rookie year, the year we got to 47.

Bosh was great for us definitely, and still is for the heat. but for us, defensively, too many times he would be bullied, even by actual pf's and not the other team's center. If you took note of the article, it compared bosh's and JV's rookie years, and how they are similar stats wise, while JV did it with less minutes, 10 mins less.

I think JV can be great if he continues to grow, as Bosh was also great. I think the ultimate difference will be that JV is a center, one of the positions in the NBA with low amount of depth, while Bosh was and is a pf, arguable the position with the most depth, if not second most behind pg.
pzabby is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2013, 11:40 PM   #43 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,279
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pzabby View Post
bargnani was actually a positive in his rookie year, the year we got to 47.

Bosh was great for us definitely, and still is for the heat. but for us, defensively, too many times he would be bullied, even by actual pf's and not the other team's center. If you took note of the article, it compared bosh's and JV's rookie years, and how they are similar stats wise, while JV did it with less minutes, 10 mins less.

I think JV can be great if he continues to grow, as Bosh was also great. I think the ultimate difference will be that JV is a center, one of the positions in the NBA with low amount of depth, while Bosh was and is a pf, arguable the position with the most depth, if not second most behind pg.
That's reasonable, but really such comparisons mean very little. I do think they approach the game similarly, and Jonas can hopefully be more durable with the extra bit of strength and weight, and being built more like a center overall.

Comparing rookie years means shit. Andrea was probably better than Dirk as a rookie. But seeing the same kind of drive is promising. Once Bosh needed to get doubled it made a big difference for this team. If Jonas can draw any kind of extra defensive attention it will be a big development for the team.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 12:46 AM   #44 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

Senior Member
 
pzabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 6,951
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
That's reasonable, but really such comparisons mean very little. I do think they approach the game similarly, and Jonas can hopefully be more durable with the extra bit of strength and weight, and being built more like a center overall.

Comparing rookie years means shit. Andrea was probably better than Dirk as a rookie. But seeing the same kind of drive is promising. Once Bosh needed to get doubled it made a big difference for this team. If Jonas can draw any kind of extra defensive attention it will be a big development for the team.
yeah well said. can you imagine teams having to double both gay and val, and potentially DD too? we'd have our own mini heat, except with a better pg


no need to tank! we're already there!
pzabby is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 12:55 AM   #45 (permalink)
is all bout dat life

Can't knock the Hustle
 
Nites's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 14,385
Representing:
Default

DD and Gay will never get doubled on a daily bases. They just aren't dominate enough and don't shoot high percentages. Teams will just play the law of averages and let them shoot.
Nites is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 12:59 AM   #46 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

Senior Member
 
pzabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 6,951
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nites View Post
DD and Gay will never get doubled on a daily bases. They just aren't dominate enough and don't shoot high percentages. Teams will just play the law of averages and let them shoot.
gay a couple years ago was consistantly doubled. who's to say he won't again?

and who's to say DD won't improve enough this year, or even by the next year to be doubled consistently?
pzabby is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 02:05 AM   #47 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,223
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nites View Post
DD and Gay will never get doubled on a daily bases. They just aren't dominate enough and don't shoot high percentages. Teams will just play the law of averages and let them shoot.
+1

Yup.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 10:21 AM   #48 (permalink)
zxcvbn193
is pounding the rock! (Edit)

Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
+1

Yup.
nope. Demar is working on his shooting this summer and I don't see why he can't improve. Same with Gay, just i don't know his training for the summer, but he has all the skill and potential to improve. I wouldn't be surprised if he would work mainly on his shooting.
  Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 10:34 AM   #49 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Membres supérieurs
 
DocHoliday99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 4,789
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pzabby View Post
Is Valanciunas’ ceiling higher than Bosh’s? | Raptors Watch
Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
I'm not sure how anything was proven regarding Bosh. He carried a team here for years, with shitnagni weighing him down throughout. Not a great comparison in any case. Two very different players with two very different kinds of ceilings. And right now we're looking at a dude in summer league, which is a terrible thing to base any kind of comparison on.
I didn't say that JV is better than Bosh as a player, that would be silly at this point, however it's about the 'ceiling' and JV has shown glimpses that he can dominate the game in a manner Bosh couldn't. Will that happen I don't know. Although tbt, a JV/Bosh pairing would be frighteningly good imo.
DocHoliday99 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 11:08 AM   #50 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,458
Representing:
Default

Watching JV use his elbows to clear space and drop the shoulder to move guys in the summer league makes me more excited to have a player like PsychoT.
None of these summer league guys want to mess with JV. They're scurred. Hansbrough embraced that physicality and threw JV to the ground.

I'm excited to see the two together - I hope Casey consistently uses a three man rotation up front.
bjjs is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 11:14 AM   #51 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,458
Representing:
Default

Saying JV can dominate the game in away Bosh can't is ignoring the current direction of the game which is essentially preventing big men from dominating.

Maybe if they change some rules a few years from now; implement the old illegal defense. Etc.

His ceiling is = to Bosh's. Hall of Famer
bjjs is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 11:58 AM   #52 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 75
Representing:
Default

JV is complete jokes!

Gangsta JV - YouTube
winecountryhero is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 12:22 PM   #53 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Membres supérieurs
 
DocHoliday99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Southern Alberta
Posts: 4,789
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
Saying JV can dominate the game in away Bosh can't is ignoring the current direction of the game which is essentially preventing big men from dominating.

Maybe if they change some rules a few years from now; implement the old illegal defense. Etc.

His ceiling is = to Bosh's. Hall of Famer
Seems to me there are more teams back pedaling and looking to take advantage with size over teams like Miami - as the top teams are desperately trying to get big, strong, and fast centers, Lakers lost out, Houston has 2, Indy has 1, Detroit has 2, Spurs just brought another in, NY has theirs, so do the Nets, etc. You can speed the game up with small ball all you want but those players will still have to shoot over the 7'ers with their arms up. And you can never beat the fg% a good center will offer nor the defense. Miami got lucky against the Spurs as the Spurs let it slip away when they should have won and Miami was spanked the first time in the finals against Dallas and Chandler.

As much as the league wants to go in that direction, teams will still covet big bruising centers and for the most part, teams that have them win. It took 2 hall of famers in their prime, 1 partial hurt hall of famer and a couple soon to be hall of famers to win with small ball (and just barely). You don't think Miami is worried about the Nets, Chicago and Pacers when they are healthy and hungry? Or going against Houston (whom I believe will go to the finals) with D12/Asik? And those all have big centers. There have always been small ball and hybrid teams but looking at the history it's typically been the teams that are traditionally built (with some modern tweaking of course) that win in the playoffs.

Last edited by DocHoliday99; 07-17-2013 at 12:25 PM.
DocHoliday99 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 12:28 PM   #54 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,458
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DocHoliday99 View Post
Seems to me there are more teams back pedaling and looking to take advantage with size over teams like Miami - as the top teams are desperately trying to get big, strong, and fast centers, Lakers lost out, Houston has 2, Indy has 1, Detroit has 2, Spurs just brought another in, NY has theirs, so do the Nets, etc. You can speed the game up with small ball all you want but those players will still have to shoot over the 7'ers with their arms up. And you can never beat the fg% a good center will offer nor the defense. Miami got lucky against the Spurs as the Spurs let it slip away when they should have won and Miami was spanked the first time in the finals against Dallas and Chandler.

As much as the league wants to go in that direction, teams will still covet big bruising centers and for the most part, teams that have them win. It took 2 hall of famers in their prime, 1 partial hurt hall of famer and a couple soon to be hall of famers to win with small ball (and just barely). You don't think Miami is worried about the Nets, Chicago and Pacers when they are healthy and hungry? And those all have big centers. There have always been small ball and hybrid teams but looking at the history it's typically been the teams that are traditionally built (with some modern tweaking of course) that win in the playoffs.
But you're bringing up guys like Chandler and Noah who are role players - which is precisely my point. They're not dominant offensive centers. They're 7 footers who can defend. In Chandler's case, he was often the only a big on a team that often went small ball with Melo at the four.

As good as Duncan is, the Spurs tried getting everybody involved...how many times did he reach 30 points this season? They didn't rely on him being dominant. And even the Spurs claim Duncan is a PF and spent time running against the Heat with Duncan the only big on the court. They had to match small ball with small ball.

Hibbert wasn't dominant this season - although he left his mark on a series he lost.

Brook Lopez couldn't dominate a team in the playoffs without their best player.

The consensus best center in the game today - Dwight Howard - has hardly been dominant.

I didn't say there isn't a place for centers in today's game. There is. But can they be dominant?

Bosh is at the top of the class as it is by being a PF playing the position and playing outstanding pick and roll defense and being a solid third wheel offensively.


To me dominant = Lebron/Kobe/Shaq/Dream etc.

Last edited by bjjs; 07-17-2013 at 12:31 PM.
bjjs is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 12:46 PM   #55 (permalink)
LOG
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
LOG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Toronto
Posts: 8,807
Representing:
Default

you bring a guy like Shaq in todays nba and I guarantee he would dominate..
LOG is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 12:48 PM   #56 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,458
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOG View Post
you bring a guy like Shaq in todays nba and I guarantee he would dominate..
I disagree. Different rules. Having to stick to a man or commit to a double is a far bigger disadvantage going up against Shaq. The way teams are able to play inbetween now while avoiding the defensive three would make things much harder for him.

It would also be a much harder for Shaq to match-up on the court defensively.

He would still be a great player and a hall of famer - but not dominant in the same way he was dominant in his prime.

Last edited by bjjs; 07-17-2013 at 12:56 PM.
bjjs is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 01:35 PM   #57 (permalink)
and that's the bottom line, cause JV said so!!!

This is how U(jiri) do it
 
Carlos Danger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Halifax
Posts: 3,923
Representing:
Default

I don't think when people say dominate they are referring to JV playing at Olajuwon levels or even Shaq levels.

I think with the lack of star centers in the NBA, JV can no doubt be a top 3-5 by the time he's 25. With the way he's going, if he can add on a bit more muscle and keep the mobility, there's no reason he can't do what Bosh did on this team and put up 20+ and 8+ rebounds.
Carlos Danger is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 01:40 PM   #58 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,423
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfunkie1 View Post
jonas has a very long way to go to become a player of bosh's calibre, let alone a player you can build around. you guys need to relax.
Thank you.

Let's see 20 & 10 (on 50+% shooting) from JV for ONE season before we start making comparisons.

Don't get me wrong... I like JV a lot.... but people to slow the hell down.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 01:42 PM   #59 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

Senior Member
 
jeffb's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 74,727
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
Thank you.

Let's see 20 & 10 (on 50+% shooting) from JV for ONE season before we start making comparisons.

Don't get me wrong... I like JV a lot.... but people to slow the hell down.
This coming from a Bosh fanboy.

Seriously though, I agree. Let's calm down a little and see what happens.
jeffb is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2013, 01:45 PM   #60 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,423
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
This coming from a Bosh fanboy.

Seriously though, I agree. Let's calm down a little and see what happens.
Has very little to do with being a fanboy. Some people were making the same stupid comparisons whenever Bargs would have a stretch of good games.

If JV becomes a legit beast I'll be the first one singing his praises. Trust me.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24