CBS sports: Colangelo's future in Toronto
Old 02-06-2012, 09:51 AM   #1 (permalink)
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CBS sports: Colangelo's future in Toronto

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4. Raptors: Despite the apparent stability in Toronto, speculation persists among rival front office sources that team president Bryan Colangelo remains uncertain of his future with the team. As with the Petrie situation, I'm dubious. The imminent removal of the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan component of the ownership group bodes well for Colangelo, who was not held in high regard by key members of that group. The remaining power broker, chairman of the board Larry Tanenbaum, has long been a Colangelo supporter. My read on Colangelo's situation is that he's comfortable with ownership's perception of the plan to shift to a defensive mindset under coach Dwane Casey and that he assuaged any concerns by welcoming former Sixers and Nets executive Ed Stefanski into the front office. I don't see any major upheaval on the horizon.

Postups: Recent coach changes may foreshadow ouster of some GMs - NBA - CBSSports.com News, Scores, Stats, Fantasy Advice
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:00 AM   #2 (permalink)
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imminent removal of the Ontario Teachers Pension Plan
I don't get this line as it has already happened?
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:12 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't get this line as it has already happened?
if i remember correctly the deal said that the owner change in JUNE ou JULY 2012.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:15 AM   #4 (permalink)
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sounds like a stretch and filler to me, he should be fine
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:46 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I like BC and hope he stays, sure he made some bad decisions in the past but every GM does and I like the moves he has made lately and I think he is moving us in the right direction. As a franchise we need some stability, BC should know better then any GM by now what works and what doesn't in Toronto.
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Old 02-06-2012, 10:50 AM   #6 (permalink)
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If we get a new GM, unless he is a proven basketball mind, It would be a risky move because half the GM's out there have no idea what there doing.

And if JV ends up being even half the player he is projected to be, then BC is doing a fine job :cookie:
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:32 AM   #7 (permalink)
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If we get a new GM, unless he is a proven basketball mind, It would be a risky move because half the GM's out there have no idea what there doing.

And if JV ends up being even half the player he is projected to be, then BC is doing a fine job
Agreed.. and just remember, we had Rob Babcock as our Gm at one point..
if anything.. I think the Raptors are still recovering from what that idiot did to the team
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:34 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Agreed.. and just remember, we had Rob Babcock as our Gm at one point..
if anything.. I think the Raptors are still recovering from what that idiot did to the team
Lulz. That "idiot" ended up giving BC a ton of cap room, brought in Jose, turned Rafer into Mike James (who had a career year with us) and drafted CV, who ended up being a valuable trade asset.

Not bad considering he came into a crap situation and only a year to make changes (which was ridiculous in itself).
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Old 02-06-2012, 12:50 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Lulz. That "idiot" ended up giving BC a ton of cap room, brought in Jose, turned Rafer into Mike James (who had a career year with us) and drafted CV, who ended up being a valuable trade asset.

Not bad considering he came into a crap situation and only a year to make changes (which was ridiculous in itself).
but the Carter trade was one of the worst trades EVER. The negatives outweigh the positives by a tonne.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:06 PM   #10 (permalink)
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ultimately, like most players, no gm is unreplaceable
I hope he stays, but if he's canned, there better be for a clear upgrade, not to save money or appease egos.

Stability is a great asset and shouldn't be thrown away easily.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:10 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Lulz. That "idiot" ended up giving BC a ton of cap room, brought in Jose, turned Rafer into Mike James (who had a career year with us) and drafted CV, who ended up being a valuable trade asset.

Not bad considering he came into a crap situation and only a year to make changes (which was ridiculous in itself).
I thought Wayne Embry made most of the moves that gave BC the capspace?

VC trade/Haffa pick will always be the two things that will always stick to him. Those two moves alone completely set this franchise back as we were trying to rebuild.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:20 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I thought Wayne Embry made most of the moves that gave BC the capspace?

VC trade/Haffa pick will always be the two things that will always stick to him. Those two moves alone completely set this franchise back as we were trying to rebuild.
Wayne Embry pulled the trigger on the groundwork that was already in place.

The Haffa pick was a no-win scenario. At that point we didn't know what a bitch VC was going to be and we needed a C desperately. The scouting staff backed that pick after doing weeks of workouts and months of legwork. Babcock came in right before the draft and went with the pick. Hard to fault him for that unless you're using hindsight.

VC fucked this team far more than Babcock ever did.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:45 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Lulz. That "idiot" ended up giving BC a ton of cap room, brought in Jose, turned Rafer into Mike James (who had a career year with us) and drafted CV, who ended up being a valuable trade asset.

Not bad considering he came into a crap situation and only a year to make changes (which was ridiculous in itself).
I'm sorry, but I fail to see how turning rafer into james was a good move. We basically became a vehicle for james to shoot his way into a massive contract elsewhere. He was no good before we got him, no good while here and no good after. He was entertaining, I'll give you that . Same with drafting Jose, anytime you draft a good player with a very late pick, you're not allowed to take credit for it imo. If you really thought that player will be worth something, you would (or at least should) have drafted him earlier. 500k (cost of an early second rounder) is peanuts for a good prospect. Otherwise, it's just luck.

Drafting CV was a good move, but ONLY because BC traded him while his value was high (against the wish of the fans). I'm no fortune teller, but I have a lot of difficulty believing Babcock would have traded CV. Most likely we'd have watched his trade value go down the drain the following year.

As for RB orchestrating the trade for AD, I don't recall any rumours of that nature in advance of the move. In fact, it was a very surprising trade when it happened. So I'm not sure how you can be so certain that it was RB's handywork. If it was, then that was a great move and ironic that he would be fired right after making his only good move here.

But all in all, for the limited time he was here, he truly made a ton of mistakes. He was brought in because MLSE was cheap and the old adage (penny wise, dollar foolish ..) was proven once more.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:50 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm sorry, but I fail to see how turning rafer into james was a good move. We basically became a vehicle for james to shoot his way into a massive contract elsewhere. He was no good before we got him, no good while here and no good after. He was entertaining, I'll give you that . Same with drafting Jose, anytime you draft a good player with a very late pick, you're not allowed to take credit for it imo. If you really thought that player will be worth something, you would (or at least should) have drafted him earlier. 500k (cost of an early second rounder) is peanuts for a good prospect. Otherwise, it's just luck.

Drafting CV was a good move, but ONLY because BC traded him while his value was high (against the wish of the fans). I'm no fortune teller, but I have a lot of difficulty believing Babcock would have traded CV. Most likely we'd have watched his trade value go down the drain the following year.

As for RB orchestrating the trade for AD, I don't recall any rumours of that nature in advance of the move. In fact, it was a very surprising trade when it happened. So I'm not sure how you can be so certain that it was RB's handywork. If it was, then that was a great move and ironic that he would be fired right after making his only good move here.

But all in all, for the limited time he was here, he truly made a ton of mistakes. He was brought in because MLSE was cheap and the old adage (penny wise, dollar foolish ..) was proven once more.
Just as a point of note... we didn't use a pick on Jose. He wasn't "drafted" by us. He signed in the off-season and came over. And the rest... meh. If you want to spin it all in a negative light then go right ahead... I'm sure we can go through Colangelo's tenure as well and compile an equally impressive list of gaffes over a similar time frame.

Most GMs in the league have had "down years"... the main difference here was that Babcock came into a shit situation and was never given any time to really correct it at all. And in spite of everything he really did a credible job.

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Old 02-06-2012, 02:09 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I thought Wayne Embry made most of the moves that gave BC the capspace?

VC trade/Haffa pick will always be the two things that will always stick to him. Those two moves alone completely set this franchise back as we were trying to rebuild.
The VC trade set the franchise back while it was trying to rebuild?

How?

By bringing back picks? Because we all know that rebuilding teams don't like to stockpile picks.

By shedding Carter's salary, the Raps saved around 60 million dollars down the road. Rebuilding teams don't like capspace do they?
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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The VC trade set the franchise back while it was trying to rebuild?

How?

By bringing back picks? Because we all know that rebuilding teams don't like to stockpile picks.

By shedding Carter's salary, the Raps saved around 60 million dollars down the road. Rebuilding teams don't like capspace do they?
You seriously think that the VC trade was a good trade? Are you high? No proven assets and picks from a playoff team. Lovely
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:41 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I'm sorry, but I fail to see how turning rafer into james was a good move. We basically became a vehicle for james to shoot his way into a massive contract elsewhere. He was no good before we got him, no good while here and no good after. He was entertaining, I'll give you that . Same with drafting Jose, anytime you draft a good player with a very late pick, you're not allowed to take credit for it imo. If you really thought that player will be worth something, you would (or at least should) have drafted him earlier. 500k (cost of an early second rounder) is peanuts for a good prospect. Otherwise, it's just luck.

Drafting CV was a good move, but ONLY because BC traded him while his value was high (against the wish of the fans). I'm no fortune teller, but I have a lot of difficulty believing Babcock would have traded CV. Most likely we'd have watched his trade value go down the drain the following year.

As for RB orchestrating the trade for AD, I don't recall any rumours of that nature in advance of the move. In fact, it was a very surprising trade when it happened. So I'm not sure how you can be so certain that it was RB's handywork. If it was, then that was a great move and ironic that he would be fired right after making his only good move here.

But all in all, for the limited time he was here, he truly made a ton of mistakes. He was brought in because MLSE was cheap and the old adage (penny wise, dollar foolish ..) was proven once more.
Are you really questioning one year of Mike James and his expiring deal vs. the 5 years at roughly 4.5 million per season that were remaining on Rafer's contract?

Like TO said, Jose was a free agent signing. He wasn't a draft pick. He was being targeted by several teams, but Babcock won over Jose due to the fact he could speak Spanish.

And Rose trade rumours were swirling during the offseason right up until he was traded. The Knicks being the one team always mentioned due to his connection with Thomas and Larry Brown , so I really don't know where you're getting your info from. Babcock didn't want to include the pick, so was reluctant to do the deal and once he was gone, Embry stepped in and added the pick and pulled the trigger.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:46 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The VC trade set the franchise back while it was trying to rebuild?

How?

By bringing back picks? Because we all know that rebuilding teams don't like to stockpile picks.

By shedding Carter's salary, the Raps saved around 60 million dollars down the road. Rebuilding teams don't like capspace do they?
Yeah, two first round picks from two teams that were both playoff teams (Philly and Denver). Yeah, so those late first round picks are so valuable. Especially when Babcock uses one on Joey Graham and trades the other away for a finished Antonio Davis.

And what exactly did the team do with all that precious cap room they saved? Nothing. Vince would have been an expiring contract in 2006-07 (if he even picked up his player option, which I doubt he would have), when BC came in and wanted to make his moves, so that contract would not have been prohibitive.

Anyway, the point isn't even that the return he got actually hurt the team (though it did), but that he could easily have gotten so much more. Similarly, Bosh walking cost the team a great deal - even though the TPE and first rounders coming back are useful, if Bosh had let it be known he was leaving and was traded before he walked, we'd be in arguably a much better position than we are now. So if that trade was the best offer out there at the time, why settle for crap when you could just give it a try the next offseason, then the next deadline, then the next offseason, etc, since you know you are rebuilding anyway. No rush to throw away your only trade asset.
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:54 PM   #19 (permalink)
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You seriously think that the VC trade was a good trade? Are you high? No proven assets and picks from a playoff team. Lovely
I'm not high, but perhaps you are or you were still watching the Leafs and so are not really aware of what the Raptors were doing back then.

Carter's value was at an all-time low and he was only 2 years into a year extension that paid him on average 15 million a year.

And they weren't the the Nets picks (even though the Nets were well 9 games below .500 at the time of the trade). They were picks owed to New jersey from Philly and Denver.
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:07 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Yeah, two first round picks from two teams that were both playoff teams (Philly and Denver). Yeah, so those late first round picks are so valuable. Especially when Babcock uses one on Joey Graham and trades the other away for a finished Antonio Davis.

And what exactly did the team do with all that precious cap room they saved? Nothing. Vince would have been an expiring contract in 2006-07 (if he even picked up his player option, which I doubt he would have), when BC came in and wanted to make his moves, so that contract would not have been prohibitive.

Anyway, the point isn't even that the return he got actually hurt the team (though it did), but that he could easily have gotten so much more. Similarly, Bosh walking cost the team a great deal - even though the TPE and first rounders coming back are useful, if Bosh had let it be known he was leaving and was traded before he walked, we'd be in arguably a much better position than we are now. So if that trade was the best offer out there at the time, why settle for crap when you could just give it a try the next offseason, then the next deadline, then the next offseason, etc, since you know you are rebuilding anyway. No rush to throw away your only trade asset.
Way to let jeff off the hook, Dan.

Philly finished only two games over .500, so it was more like a mid-round pick and Babcock did not trade the other pick - Embry did, which could've easily been used to select Rondo.

And regardless, those picks were assets. One that allowed us to get rid of Rose and one that allowed us to pick the strongest player ever.

Futhermore, the Carter trade was addition by subtraction. Are you saying they should've let him sit on the bench and sulk for another three years and poison the dressing room even further?
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