CBS sports: Colangelo's future in Toronto - Page 2
Old 02-06-2012, 04:08 PM   #21 (permalink)
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it was a shitty ass trade
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:20 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Way to let jeff off the hook, Dan.

Philly finished only two games over .500, so it was more like a mid-round pick and Babcock did not trade the other pick - Embry did, which could've easily been used to select Rondo.

And regardless, those picks were assets. One that allowed us to get rid of Rose and one that allowed us to pick the strongest player ever.

Futhermore, the Carter trade was addition by subtraction. Are you saying they should've let him sit on the bench and sulk for another three years and poison the dressing room?
Sure, the picks were assets. One of which he wasted with another terrible draft pick, and the other that needed to be used to grease the wheels on another cap saving trade because of the terrible Rose contract he traded for. Rose was earning the max, remember. And yes, it was Embry who pulled the trigger in order to clear cap space, as Babcock didn't want to lose the pick that was all that was left of what little he got for VC - even though the Nuggets were the 20th pick that year.

Addition by subtraction? Come on now. Do you seriously think that if the team had held onto him for, say, one more season, exploring the trade market, he would have so poisoned the room that it would counter any effects of actually getting a return on his trade?

The question is not whether Babcock got something positive back in that trade. The question is whether he got anywhere near enough. And he didn't. Because he was more worried about pandering to the demands of a franchise player who had given up on the team than surrounding good young talent like Chris Bosh with a real team.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:25 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Sure, the picks were assets. One of which he wasted with another terrible draft pick, and the other that needed to be used to grease the wheels on another cap saving trade because of the terrible Rose contract he traded for. Rose was earning the max, remember. And yes, it was Embry who pulled the trigger in order to clear cap space, as Babcock didn't want to lose the pick that was all that was left of what little he got for VC - even though the Nuggets were the 20th pick that year.

Addition by subtraction? Come on now. Do you seriously think that if the team had held onto him for, say, one more season, exploring the trade market, he would have so poisoned the room that it would counter any effects of actually getting a return on his trade?

The question is not whether Babcock got something positive back in that trade. The question is whether he got anywhere near enough. And he didn't. Because he was more worried about pandering to the demands of a franchise player who had given up on the team than surrounding good young talent like Chris Bosh with a real team.
Grunwald traded for Rose, not Babcock.

And yes, a guy refusing to participate in practices, sitting by himself on the bench with a towel over his head during timeouts and tipping opposing teams off of the plays at critical points during the game had to go ASAP.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:29 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I'd support Dan on this one. I don't believe any franchise player has been traded for so little in recent memory.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:47 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Grunwald traded for Rose, not Babcock.

And yes, a guy refusing to participate in practices, sitting by himself on the bench with a towel over his head during timeouts and tipping opposing teams off of the plays at critical points during the game had to go ASAP.
Fair enough on Grunwald. Babcock still refused to clear that cap space because he was clinging to a pick that, lets face it, 99% of the time doesn't net you a Rondo.

But I disagree that it would have been an issue. What long term players were being poisoned? Bosh was a quality kid and would have been fine. Anyone other keepers on that team at the time? And heck, if your GM can't find a better deal than that for a superstar player in quick order, fire him and get someone who can. As has been mentioned, I think the VC trade might be the worst in the past decade in terms of return for a franchise player.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:51 PM   #26 (permalink)
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What is also interesting is that, through all our GMs, VC trade is the only example where we were clearly taken to the cleaners. Usually, the Raps either win their trades or at least break even.

I am not counting "fake" trades like S&T we've executed with Bosh and T-Mac.
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Old 02-06-2012, 04:59 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Fair enough on Grunwald. Babcock still refused to clear that cap space because he was clinging to a pick that, lets face it, 99% of the time doesn't net you a Rondo.

But I disagree that it would have been an issue. What long term players were being poisoned? Bosh was a quality kid and would have been fine. Anyone other keepers on that team at the time? And heck, if your GM can't find a better deal than that for a superstar player in quick order, fire him and get someone who can. As has been mentioned, I think the VC trade might be the worst in the past decade in terms of return for a franchise player.
Well, the Knicks were desperate (they had even fallen behind the Raps in the standings) and maybe he was hoping they would eventually drop their demand of a pick, not knowing he wouldn't be here long enough to find out.

Also, when is the last time a franchise player coming off of consecutive season ending injuries so blatantly mailed it in?
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:31 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Also, when is the last time a franchise player coming off of consecutive season ending injuries so blatantly mailed it in?
What does it matter? He was mailing it in because he was unhappy with the team, so it shouldn't have changed his value. And the injuries aren't new - there are always some GM's willing to bet the injuries go away as soon as they acquire the player.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:38 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Toronto didn't have much to choose from in the VC trade, thats why it infuriated people who knew what was going on. When guys fuck their team like that it drives the trade value WAY down.... teams know they dont have to offer shit.

Only rumour I heard, ever during that time that would have panned out if you look at it was Ray Allen straight up. Other than that, the trade was 100% about conceding defeat with Carter and saving 5 million on the cap a year later, and NO, Zo was never part of the deal, Toronto management knew he wouldn't report, that was part of the savings, and what they wanted.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:18 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Yeah, two first round picks from two teams that were both playoff teams (Philly and Denver). Yeah, so those late first round picks are so valuable. Especially when Babcock uses one on Joey Graham and trades the other away for a finished Antonio Davis.

And what exactly did the team do with all that precious cap room they saved? Nothing. Vince would have been an expiring contract in 2006-07 (if he even picked up his player option, which I doubt he would have), when BC came in and wanted to make his moves, so that contract would not have been prohibitive.

Anyway, the point isn't even that the return he got actually hurt the team (though it did), but that he could easily have gotten so much more. Similarly, Bosh walking cost the team a great deal - even though the TPE and first rounders coming back are useful, if Bosh had let it be known he was leaving and was traded before he walked, we'd be in arguably a much better position than we are now. So if that trade was the best offer out there at the time, why settle for crap when you could just give it a try the next offseason, then the next deadline, then the next offseason, etc, since you know you are rebuilding anyway. No rush to throw away your only trade asset.
A "finished" Antonio Davis? The guy had his best seasons with us an was a vital part of the team. He was arguably one of the few players over the past 10 years to come through this franchise who actually lived up to his contract.

ACIE's done a solid job of refreshing your memory here for the most part but allow me to add one last thing....

Babcock didn't pull the trigger on the VC deal. Peddie and the board did. They saw a chance to save a boatload of money and took the option as soon as Babcock presented it to them. Vince was traded WELL in advance of the trade deadline that year.... what GM (no matter how incompetent) would EVER do that? You can't possibly think that he thought that Zo + Williams x 2 was the best offer that he was going to get?

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What does it matter? He was mailing it in because he was unhappy with the team, so it shouldn't have changed his value. And the injuries aren't new - there are always some GM's willing to bet the injuries go away as soon as they acquire the player.
C'mon..... you know better than that. As soon as teams know that a player wants out it all but tanks his trade value. You start bargaining from a position of weakness and it snowballs from there.

In retrospect I DO wish that the Raps had just told Vince to stay home if he didn't want to be part of the team... but very few teams have the stones to pull that off. Esp. when you're talking about a star player. It'll almost never happen.

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Old 02-06-2012, 07:27 PM   #31 (permalink)
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A "finished" Antonio Davis? The guy had his best seasons with us an was a vital part of the team. He was arguably one of the few players over the past 10 years to come through this franchise who actually lived up to his contract.
The trade involved post-2005 Antonio Davis, who came over from New York. AD's best seasons with the Raps happened before he was traded to Chicago in 2003. By 2005-2006, AD was finished.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:32 PM   #32 (permalink)
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A "finished" Antonio Davis? The guy had his best seasons with us an was a vital part of the team. He was arguably one of the few players over the past 10 years to come through this franchise who actually lived up to his contract.

ACIE's done a solid job of refreshing your memory here for the most part but allow me to add one last thing....

Babcock didn't pull the trigger on the VC deal. Peddie and the board did. They saw a chance to save a boatload of money and took the option as soon as Babcock presented it to them. Vince was traded WELL in advance of the trade deadline that year.... what GM (no matter how incompetent) would EVER do that? You can't possibly think that he thought that Zo + Williams x 2 was the best offer that he was going to get?
1) I think you are getting the wrong AD time frame here. He played a few games, got hurt, then was waived partway through the season. You're thinking of the first time AD was brought here.

2) Babcock shouldn't have presented a deal like that. The whole point of having a GM is to act like a filter between the board and the other teams - do you think the board would have been presented with that deal if BC was helming the ship? Not a chance - the trade deadline was far away and any GM worth his salt would know that NJ's offer would only get better as the season went on. My point is that Babcock was incompetent enough to allow that to happen. No GM should present a deal before the board unless they think it is worth considering. Otherwise you're just a patsy.

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C'mon..... you know better than that. As soon as teams know that a player wants out it all but tanks his trade value. You start bargaining from a position of weakness and it snowballs from there.
Only if you give in and trade them like that. Let them sit for a couple months, beg to get back to playing, and then their trade value is suddenly quite high in the wonderful world of the off-season, where optimism abounds. Teams miss out on the free agents they wanted, are offered the chance to grab a player like Carter, and you get a heck of a lot more than the garbage Babcock settled for.
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Old 02-06-2012, 08:08 PM   #33 (permalink)
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1) I think you are getting the wrong AD time frame here. He played a few games, got hurt, then was waived partway through the season. You're thinking of the first time AD was brought here.
Yep, I was.... my bad.

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2) Babcock shouldn't have presented a deal like that. The whole point of having a GM is to act like a filter between the board and the other teams - do you think the board would have been presented with that deal if BC was helming the ship? Not a chance - the trade deadline was far away and any GM worth his salt would know that NJ's offer would only get better as the season went on. My point is that Babcock was incompetent enough to allow that to happen. No GM should present a deal before the board unless they think it is worth considering. Otherwise you're just a patsy.
Babcock WAS a patsy... he just didn't know it at the time. He was a guy who was given his first chance to GM a team and he jumped at the chance (who can really blame him?). He didn't have clear autonomy (which BC insisted on before coming aboard) and thus, had to report to the board. He did as instructed.. and got fucked for it. Hard to blame him... unless you're going to blame him for taking the job in the first place. The point of the matter is that Babcock was certainly smart enough to know that what we got out of the VC trade wasn't the best deal out there. He's not the village idiot that most make him out to be. He was just a mild-mannered guy who was put in a shitty no-win sitution. With the state the team was in no GM could have done much more.


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Only if you give in and trade them like that. Let them sit for a couple months, beg to get back to playing, and then their trade value is suddenly quite high in the wonderful world of the off-season, where optimism abounds. Teams miss out on the free agents they wanted, are offered the chance to grab a player like Carter, and you get a heck of a lot more than the garbage Babcock settled for.
I agree.... and who knows? Maybe that was a legit possibility and Babcock would have just let Carter play out the season rather than trade him for peanuts. The board took that off the table though. They only had eyes for dollars saved.
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