Can Bosh lead a team to a title?
Old 02-04-2009, 02:34 PM   #1 (permalink)
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It looks like Grange agrees with those of us who don't think it's possible:

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As I mentioned a few posts ago, building around max players is tricky, especially if you don't want to go over the luxury tax and the guy with the max contract isn't LeBron, Kobe, Tim Duncan or Dwight Howard. If you commit so much money to one guy and you don't want to spend over the tax, it's really hard to be a championship-calibre team unless your max guy is an annual MVP candidate. Not sure Bosh is quite there. Can you build around Bargnani? I'm not sure about that either, but the benefit is you probably would not have to make him a max player when the time comes. He's due for $6.5-million next year, the last year of his rookie deal. Let's say, for argument's sake, he would sign for five years and $60-million. That might be light, especially if he continues to progress. But I'd be surprised if he would evolve into a max player between now and next year. In any scenario his deal would cheaper than Bosh's, leaving more money to add more talent around Bargnani. Is that the way to go? Trade Bosh for some top quality complimentary talent; re-sign Bargnani has something below the max and then add more talent with the savings you'd have as compared to Bosh?
If Bosh gets MAX in 2010, it could be more damaging than trading him. For the record, I think that only 5 players deserve a max contract today: lebron, kobe, duncan, wade and paul. And by max I don't mean the maximum salary possible for a give player, but the maximum salary period. Howard gets MAX, but in fact he's only paid 17 millions a year or so. Bosh only gets 15 this season and so on. The next time Bosh signs, he could qualify for ~22/yr.

Giving a max contract to any other player will probably choke a team and make it into another version of 'Wolves or 76ers when KG and AI were playing there.
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Old 02-04-2009, 02:42 PM   #2 (permalink)
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bosh is definitely not worth 22 million.
we do that, and we better get ready for 5 + more years like this one.
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Old 02-04-2009, 02:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
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As long as the quality of Bosh's teammates continues to be "meh" Bosh won't be leading us anywhere... neither will anyone else.
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Old 02-04-2009, 02:48 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Bosh would be great in LA, Miami or Cleavland... he needs to have great scoring guard or wing player with him... any team that tries to build with Bosh in mind as their 1st option will end up like Raps.
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Old 02-04-2009, 02:57 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
As long as the quality of Bosh's teammates continues to be "meh" Bosh won't be leading us anywhere... neither will anyone else.
+1
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Old 02-04-2009, 02:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Can Bosh lead his team to a title?
He's got to change his game dramatically. He'll never do it by consuming the ball on offence the way he does now. He needs to focus on rebounding and defence and let another teammate be the first option. He doesn't have that teammate with the Raptors.
The problem is that Bosh himself is probably the only tradable asset that Toronto has to acquire said teammate.
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Old 02-04-2009, 03:09 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Depends. Would you say Rasheed Wallace could lead a team to a championship? Probably not... but he had 3 other all-stars with him.

Right now Bosh is playing with 2 centers, a somewhat injured PG. If you watched Lebron yest and were a cavs fan... would you complain that Lebron got the ball stolen by graham like 3 times?... the same way Bosh gets it stolen by Noah etc.?

NO.. because Mo Williams, Gibson, and Szerbiak hit like 100 3's. Our 3 point shooters are shit.. and teams collapse on our bigs. Don't hate bosh... hate our gaurds... even when we had ford it opened it up for Bosh a bit.

Let's just wait until we get a backcourt before we throw Bosh under the bus.
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Old 02-04-2009, 03:17 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Depends. Would you say Rasheed Wallace could lead a team to a championship? Probably not... but he had 3 other all-stars with him.

Right now Bosh is playing with 2 centers, a somewhat injured PG. If you watched Lebron yest and were a cavs fan... would you complain that Lebron got the ball stolen by graham like 3 times?... the same way Bosh gets it stolen by Noah etc.?

NO.. because Mo Williams, Gibson, and Szerbiak hit like 100 3's. Our 3 point shooters are shit.. and teams collapse on our bigs. Don't hate bosh... hate our gaurds... even when we had ford it opened it up for Bosh a bit.

Let's just wait until we get a backcourt before we throw Bosh under the bus.
That's sort of the point. Sheed never took up the capspace Bosh will if we resign him. If Sheed is on a max contract that year the Pistons don't sniff the finals or championship. Although Billups was their best player and is underrated as a "star" of this decade because of his lesser stats. Guy just knows how to run a team

I've always loved the '04-'08 Pistons as a shove-it to the cap/stats/max salary system... Dumars built a lineup full of guys with impacts better than their stats who were thus paid less than their worth. Thus by maximizing the worth for his $ spent, he fit more talent onto his squad and was able to pull off a starting lineup with 5 arguable all-stars. He really went full reversal on the way most teams try to build contenders by overpaying for 'stars' like Elton Brand and Baron Davis

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Old 02-04-2009, 03:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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short answer, not a chance in it ever happening
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Old 02-04-2009, 03:48 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Where does Grange agree with anything. The guy looks at different options and asks deliberative questions. There's no agreeing or anything to be agreed with. There is only considering and coming up with what you think yourself. Is it not ok to agree with yourself and be content without re-interpreting the whole universe?
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:25 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't think Dwight Howard, good as he is, could lead his team to a title either. He gets lots of turnovers and isn't a big time scorer (20ppg is not big time). But, put a few solid pieces around him (Hedo, Nelso and Rashard are pretty solid) and you have a potential contender.

To answer the question, no, I don't think you can win a title with Bosh as your #1, but frankly it's virtually impossible to win one without one of: Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Duncan, and, in my estimation in a few years, Durant.

But, ensemble casts have done it in the past: the Pistons didn't have a single player as good as Shaq or Kobe and won; the Bad Boy Pistons didn't have an answer to young Jordan and still won...

There's not many titles going around; quite a few of the top-50 players do not have rings, and many of those who do only did when another all-time great came around (ie. David Robinson with Duncan).
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Dwight is the DPOY and makes his teammates better in a huge way by creating doubles and open shots on the outside, and passing with his back to the basket game. Plus he's the best rebounder in the league and good leader. Bosh ONLY affects the game by scoring. Which is a HUGE red flag. His effect isn't near Dwight, Duncan, or prime KG's for that reason.

Orlando could win with Dwight if they didn't have that Shard deal. Shard works great on their team but the extra weight will cause them to lose Hedo this summer and it kills their bench as it stands. As it stands they've been lucky Meer and Hedo have blown up as they have and that they got the league's best coach instead of Billy Donavon
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:44 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BballWatcher View Post
I don't think Dwight Howard, good as he is, could lead his team to a title either. He gets lots of turnovers and isn't a big time scorer (20ppg is not big time). But, put a few solid pieces around him (Hedo, Nelso and Rashard are pretty solid) and you have a potential contender.

To answer the question, no, I don't think you can win a title with Bosh as your #1, but frankly it's virtually impossible to win one without one of: Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Duncan, and, in my estimation in a few years, Durant.

But, ensemble casts have done it in the past: the Pistons didn't have a single player as good as Shaq or Kobe and won; the Bad Boy Pistons didn't have an answer to young Jordan and still won...

There's not many titles going around; quite a few of the top-50 players do not have rings, and many of those who do only did when another all-time great came around (ie. David Robinson with Duncan).
Nice post. But I would say it's hard to conclude that Wade alone could lead a team anywhere. Same with Lebron and Kobe, or even Duncan. One guy alone is not going to do the job. duncan made it easier to build around in that he gives you a great defense right off. Lebron is similar in that sense.

The fact that Orlando could put together a team as formidible as they have (when injury-free) with such crazy contracts goes to the point that it's less about economics and more about having a blueprint that actually gets followed. Is that in place here? I wonder. And don't tell me that maintaining maximum financial flexibility is a blueprint, because it is actually by definition (if offered up as the prime objective) just the opposite of having a blueprint (as an excuse for not needing one until some point that may never arrive).
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Bosh can't lead a team to the title as the number one option/face of franchise, he can how ever win a title as a second all-star maybe teamed up with Wade, Howard, or LBJ
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Old 02-04-2009, 04:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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NO.. because Mo Williams, Gibson, and Szerbiak hit like 100 3's. Our 3 point shooters are shit..
Nonsense. We are the 6th best 3-point shooting team in the league, and have 4 players shooting at least 38.9% from 3. Our three point shooters are excellent (at shooting threes). That is the absolute least of our worries.
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Old 02-04-2009, 06:31 PM   #16 (permalink)
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One player doesn't make a team. Bosh is a great player and I have a feeling that he would sign for less then the MAX if Colangelo has the potential to add another significant figure. As much as Bosh is bashed on right now, the team he has around him isn't as talented as you'd like... Adding one wing would make him more potent and the whole team more effective. You can't blame Bosh that the teams put most of the pressure on him, he's not at the level of a superstar player that can breakdown defences even though they are all looking at him. I believe he has the potential to become that player, and so does BC. So does almost every GM around the league.

Just look back at everything that was being said about Bargnani before he blew up. You have to believe in these guys and in their potential. The team needs changes, but that change is not Bosh.
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Old 02-04-2009, 06:34 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I think Grange is a reactionary, oppertunist writer.

Bosh can be very valuable. And he's a known commodity.

As much as I love Bargnani, he still is a mystery.

I haven't givin up on Bosh, not by a long stretch, I just think that kid has to pull his head outta his behind and man up!

Sad thing is, about this time last year I was sayin gthe same thing, and it was fo rthe samew reasons with him, errily. So mayb ehe can't learn from experience.
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Old 02-04-2009, 06:42 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Asking Bosh to lead a team to a title may be unfair, but I don't think anyone has those expectations. The vast majority of Raptors fans would be happy if he could just lead the Raptors to the second round. So the question is, can Bosh lead a team past the first round of the playoffs? I've seen nothing to suggest he can. And before anyone makes the "not strong enough supporting cast" excuse, who was the Raptors "second superstar" in 2001? Who was the Raptors "second 20 point scorer" in 2001? There was none. That year's supporting cast had arguably less pure talent than this year's. Yet they were able to get within one shot of the Conference Finals, and could beat almost any team on any given night.

Bottom line is, Bosh is exactly what that hypocrite Leo Rautins criticizes players like Zack Randolph and Baron Davis for being - a "stats guy" who is not a winner.
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Old 02-04-2009, 06:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Superjudge View Post
I think Grange is a reactionary, oppertunist writer.

Bosh can be very valuable. And he's a known commodity.

As much as I love Bargnani, he still is a mystery.

I haven't givin up on Bosh, not by a long stretch, I just think that kid has to pull his head outta his behind and man up!

Sad thing is, about this time last year I was sayin gthe same thing, and it was fo rthe samew reasons with him, errily. So mayb ehe can't learn from experience.
+1

Definetely. No one expects one player to lead a team to success without a solid supporting cast. Bosh is way to valuable to just give up and IMO Colangelo will do everything in his power to keep Bosh in Toronto. I can't see him trading him.
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Old 02-04-2009, 07:34 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I like to think that a player can't win a championship alone. LBJ came close, but no cigar. Examples are...

Kobe/shaq............three-peat
Tim/Manu/Parker..........so many i lost count
and most recently
KG/Truth/Ray Ray............ANYTHINGS POSSIBLE!

except in the Raptors case. we need more star power. Get 'r done BC!
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