Butch Carter: Raps look better without Bargnani - Page 2

Go Back   Raptors Forum | Toronto Raptors Forums & Message Boards > NBA Discussion > Toronto Raptors

View Poll Results: Are the Raptors better off without Bargnani?
Yes 56 80.00%
No 14 20.00%
Voters: 70. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-19-2012, 05:53 PM   #21 (permalink)
Is playing the dude disguised as another dude

Moderator

 
Shadowfax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: 5th Dimension
Posts: 10,194
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thought View Post
say what you want about andrea...but why the fuck has butch Carter all of a sudden become a go-to source for indepth analysis this season?
Cause Butch Carter is a freaking basketball genius...genius i tells ya !
Thats why he has so many different organizations knocking down his doors pleading/begging him to come and save them

Oh wait
Shadowfax is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 05:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
back

Senior Member
 
DuCa00795's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Maratimes
Posts: 3,229
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
So this great offensive talent shooting an abysmal percentage, not passing, and lacking any kind of spark, just needs more excuses and everything will work swell. Oh - sorry for the lack of patience and group think there. Missed open jumpers can only be positive - what was I thinking?

Make it end. Make it all go away. I am enjoying watching Raptors games again.
We just beat a few bad to mediocre teams, and now people are saying it is because Andrea was not there. If Andrea would have played, the same outcome would have occurred, we might have even stolen the game against Brooklyn. I don't know what you expect from big men, but I believe he is one of the better big men passers in the league. Also, he is probable only one of the only big men in the league who I would feel comfortable about taking deep shots. When Amir takes those shots, I cringe.

I don't understand why people are so against him. He is our best big man, and one of the most talented big men in the league. To blame him for our problems is insane. It's the NBA, teams score, get over it. If the team plays good team defence, than they will be able to compete night in and night out.
DuCa00795 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 06:09 PM   #23 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,427
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuCa00795 View Post
We just beat a few bad to mediocre teams, and now people are saying it is because Andrea was not there. If Andrea would have played, the same outcome would have occurred, we might have even stolen the game against Brooklyn. I don't know what you expect from big men, but I believe he is one of the better big men passers in the league. Also, he is probable only one of the only big men in the league who I would feel comfortable about taking deep shots. When Amir takes those shots, I cringe.

I don't understand why people are so against him. He is our best big man, and one of the most talented big men in the league. To blame him for our problems is insane. It's the NBA, teams score, get over it. If the team plays good team defence, than they will be able to compete night in and night out.
It's all well & good to have a ton of talent.... if you can't UTILIZE it on the court then it's pointless.

Also... why do people rave about Bargs' passing? He's NEVER been a good passer. EVER. He might throw 1 or 2 occasionally but so every player once in a while.

I've seen better interior passing from Ed Davis recently TBH.

As for why we're winning though... AA definitely has played a large part since he's been back. Solid D and he's been lights out shooting it from the 3-spot (which we've REALLY been missing).
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 06:13 PM   #24 (permalink)
back

Senior Member
 
DuCa00795's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Maratimes
Posts: 3,229
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TORaptor4Ever View Post
It's all well & good to have a ton of talent.... if you can't UTILIZE it on the court then it's pointless.

Also... why do people rave about Bargs' passing? He's NEVER been a good passer. EVER. He might throw 1 or 2 occasionally but so every player once in a while.

I've seen better interior passing from Ed Davis recently TBH.
My point is he's not a guard. He is one of the best passing big men in the league. To say that he is a bad passer is irrelevant, because I do not believe it is fair to compare his passing ability to guards. Compare them to other big guys like Howard, Chandler etc.

It's silly to bring up that he is not a great passer in an argument against him, because he is actually a good passer when we compare him to other big men.
DuCa00795 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 06:14 PM   #25 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,309
Representing:
Default

I expect open jumpers to be made. If that's just not happening, because of a 6-week cold streak, maybe getting to the line would be a good idea. And for such an astute passer, I would expect enough passes to keep teams from just swarming him the second he puts the ball on the floor due to knowing that he ain't giving it up for anything.

And there is the defense. Sorry, but just standing and watching while straight-legged on the defensive end is simply unacceptable. Even when he did get his shots to fall, he gave everything back by putting his team in the position of defending 4 on 5 for too many possessions.

Andrea can be defended in terms of talent that gets displayed occasionally. If that works for you great. It doesn't provide results. There are plenty of games that could have been won while he was on the floor. Why did he not get it done? What did you see that was so utterly irreplaceable?
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 06:17 PM   #26 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,309
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuCa00795 View Post
My point is he's not a guard. He is one of the best passing big men in the league. To say that he is a bad passer is irrelevant, because I do not believe it is fair to compare his passing ability to guards. Compare them to other big guys like Howard, Chandler etc.

It's silly to bring up that he is not a great passer in an argument against him, because he is actually a good passer when we compare him to other big men.
Let's compare his passing to Ed Davis. I'll take Davis 100 times out of 100. And his passing has made a big difference. Silly? I'll give you silly - defending a big man that plays like a guard, by saying he isn't a guard. Hilarious.

He's a black hole as power forwards go. And why are you comparing him with Centers anyway? He's not a C remember? You can't even keep your excuses straight.

Last edited by LX; 12-19-2012 at 06:20 PM.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 06:29 PM   #27 (permalink)
back

Senior Member
 
DuCa00795's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Maratimes
Posts: 3,229
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
Let's compare his passing to Ed Davis. I'll take Davis 100 times out of 100. And his passing has made a big difference. Silly? I'll give you silly - defending a big man that plays like a guard, by saying he isn't a guard. Hilarious.
You are exaggerating. He's not a guard, he posts up, and occasionally shoots the three. Ed Davis vs Bargnani's passing skills is almost incomparable. Your obviously are seeing things how you want to see it because you don't want to see Andrea in a positive light at all. I admit, he's not a good defender, but I have said over and over the NBA is about team defence. Who can guard a player like Lebron, kobe, Howard etc. When they go off, do we blame the players guarding them or the team? In our case most fans blame Andrea. It is a joke.

If you actually pay attention to him on the defensive end, you will see that he makes the proper rotation, hedges properly and plays straight up on his man. He doesn't have the lateral quickness most bigs have on defence, and that is why he does not swat shots like other bigs.

Andrea's not the problem. The problem is our inability to properly sustain a useful rotation, and trying to figure out which players deserve minutes and when. Perhaps instead of spending money on mediocre players like Fields and Pietrus, we need to focus on bring in some real talent.
DuCa00795 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 06:32 PM   #28 (permalink)
back

Senior Member
 
DuCa00795's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Maratimes
Posts: 3,229
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
He's a black hole as power forwards go. And why are you comparing him with Centers anyway? He's not a C remember? You can't even keep your excuses straight.
I am comparing him to the big men who came to the top of my head. Look at him in regards to tons of PF's in the league. I think you are resorting to failed attempts to try and mock me because you are resentful about the Raptors being horrible for the last few year - acceptable, but if you keep it up I will get irritated and adequately reply.
DuCa00795 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 06:40 PM   #29 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,309
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuCa00795 View Post
I am comparing him to the big men who came to the top of my head. Look at him in regards to tons of PF's in the league. I think you are resorting to failed attempts to try and mock me because you are resentful about the Raptors being horrible for the last few year - acceptable, but if you keep it up I will get irritated and adequately reply.
I'm trying to mock you? Dude. You called me silly. I'm making points that are based on reality. And I'm simply asking you to point out where il Mago made such a big difference?

Again - I'll look as far as Ed Davis when it comes to passing. Show me a single game this season where Andrea has had a passing game anywhere close to what Ed has done over the last couple of weeks.

Look - if you just want to say he's one of the most talented big men in the league, and not have anyone ask how that is so, then you might be needing to look elsewhere. Do results not matter?

And you say he occasionally shoots threes? He shoots more threes than free throws.

Don't accuse me of not wanting to see him in a good light. He takes care of that with his style of play, and his abysmal lack of results.

Last edited by LX; 12-19-2012 at 06:44 PM.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 06:47 PM   #30 (permalink)
back

Senior Member
 
DuCa00795's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Maratimes
Posts: 3,229
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
I'm trying to mock you? Dude. You called me silly. I'm making points that are based on reality. And I'm simply asking you to point out where il Mago made such a big difference?

Again - I'll look as far as Ed Davis when it comes to passing. Show me a single game this season where Andrea has had a passing game anywhere close to what Ed has done over the last couple of weeks.

Look - if you just want to say he's one of the most talented big men in the league, and not have anyone ask how that is so, then you might be needing to look elsewhere. Do results not matter?
Fine - it's "unfair" to use that as an argument.

Davis is a good big to big passer, I'll give him that. But Andrea is good at driving and dishing, and a good big to big passer. When someone like Ed get's double teamed, they turn it over, Andrea is cognitive enough to make the pass before he gets trapped, and is good at it.

My argument is that he is gifted offensively, he is obviously not the best overall big men. But I think it's unfair for people to be blaming him for the teams downfalls because they won a couple of games against some mediocre team, which they would have won with Bargnani. Get a win against OKC or the Heat without Bargnani, and we can start blaming Andrea.
DuCa00795 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 06:54 PM   #31 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 94
Representing:
Default

Why does he keep commenting on our team? Sounds like a clingy ex
Mobat is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 07:02 PM   #32 (permalink)
Embracing the departure of all the trolls

Senior Member
 
Bargn88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,795
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuCa00795 View Post
Fine - it's "unfair" to use that as an argument.

Davis is a good big to big passer, I'll give him that. But Andrea is good at driving and dishing, and a good big to big passer. When someone like Ed get's double teamed, they turn it over, Andrea is cognitive enough to make the pass before he gets trapped, and is good at it.

My argument is that he is gifted offensively, he is obviously not the best overall big men. But I think it's unfair for people to be blaming him for the teams downfalls because they won a couple of games against some mediocre team, which they would have won with Bargnani. Get a win against OKC or the Heat without Bargnani, and we can start blaming Andrea.
Good post

I think a big reason why were winning right now is because Jose is starting and AA is back. Both players are glue guys and know the defensive systems from last year. Theres a reason why Jonas hasn't seen much floor action in the past 3-4 games, especially in the late minutes of the 4th quarter. Like Lowry (always gambling defensively, taking bad shots), he hasn't figured out the systems and team strategies that were implemented at the start of last year. Ross and Lucas seem to have figured it out, though at times you can see they look a bit lost, as they are the other 2 players who weren't here last year. Pietrus just joined us, and he hasn't really made much of an impact at all aside from one game. It's just a coincidence that Bargnani comes out, and the Raptors start winning games. Even with Bargnani our home record was not that bad compared to our road record, so getting a couple wins at home vs struggling western conference teams without him isn't a big deal. The Cavs are statistically worse than us, so beating them shouldn't be a surprise either.
Bargn88 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 07:04 PM   #33 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,427
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuCa00795 View Post
My point is he's not a guard. He is one of the best passing big men in the league. To say that he is a bad passer is irrelevant, because I do not believe it is fair to compare his passing ability to guards. Compare them to other big guys like Howard, Chandler etc.

It's silly to bring up that he is not a great passer in an argument against him, because he is actually a good passer when we compare him to other big men.
No... he isn't. He a black hole on offense who more often than not, makes up his mind offensively REGARDLESS of what the defense is doing. He RARELY looks to pass the ball... even when he's seeing double-teams.

Marc & Pau Gasol are bigs who can pass the ball well.

So are Blake Griffin... Greg Monroe... Paul Millsap... Tim Duncan... Joakim Noah... David Lee... Anderson Varejao... etc, etc, etc.

Bargs is not in that class.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 07:04 PM   #34 (permalink)
payin Dwyane Wade

Senior Member
 
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4,772
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
Yeah, because 7yrs hasn't been enough time to figure him out.
Would have typed the same.
JoeyJoJo Shabbadu is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 07:14 PM   #35 (permalink)
Fides et Ratio.

Junior Member
 
Bmats7returns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 76
Representing:
Default

The problem is that he can't play any position well.

His only advantage on offence is against lumbering 7 ft-ers but he's too much of a wuss to grab boards on defence to play C the other way.

Time to cut our losses and move forward with a positive attitude and effort.
Bmats7returns is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 07:14 PM   #36 (permalink)
LX
synapse jelly

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 28,309
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuCa00795 View Post
Fine - it's "unfair" to use that as an argument.

Davis is a good big to big passer, I'll give him that. But Andrea is good at driving and dishing, and a good big to big passer. When someone like Ed get's double teamed, they turn it over, Andrea is cognitive enough to make the pass before he gets trapped, and is good at it.

My argument is that he is gifted offensively, he is obviously not the best overall big men. But I think it's unfair for people to be blaming him for the teams downfalls because they won a couple of games against some mediocre team, which they would have won with Bargnani. Get a win against OKC or the Heat without Bargnani, and we can start blaming Andrea.
So we can't blame him for failing to get any results, because they haven't beaten the best teams without him. Set the bar low when he plays, and say it's the team's fault for failing to win. Set the bar high when he doesn't play, and say it's the other team's fault for letting us win and we need to prove something against real competition.

I'll tell you this - you missed Ed Davis not just being cognitive enough to pass out of double teams, he's smart enough to see a double coming in the middle of his post up moves and find the open man before the double arrives. On top of that he makes nice outlet passes to start breaks, makes nice skip passes, or just makes the simple pass to a perimeter player before setting a screen. And yes he passes big to big very well. He keeps the ball moving. It's his natural disposition. He's a basketball player with very good team instincts.

Cognitive would be about the last word I would use to describe Andrea. His lack of awareness is a huge problem on both ends. He rarely even follows his own missed shots. With the volume of use he has seen in the last four years, he has never shown any kind of inclination to pass out of double teams in a timely and effective manner, nor drive and dish. He shoots from long range, and when he drives, makes up his mind and crashes into defenders or tosses up awkward shots while trying to avoid defenders. He does look good in the post, but almost always does so early in games when the team is irking to get him going, and he doesn't get going by passing. I mean look at his assist totals. Where are you seeing this great awareness, and again - where are the results?
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 07:18 PM   #37 (permalink)
Let's get this win, Raptors!

Senior Member
 
rockthetdot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,130
Representing:
Default

I couldn't have said it any better LX.
+1
rockthetdot is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 07:37 PM   #38 (permalink)
is pounding the rock!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 6,546
Representing:
Default

Yes - if able to get good return on a trade


Time for Bargs to move on....
Carlito is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 07:55 PM   #39 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,494
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
So we can't blame him for failing to get any results, because they haven't beaten the best teams without him. Set the bar low when he plays, and say it's the team's fault for failing to win. Set the bar high when he doesn't play, and say it's the other team's fault for letting us win and we need to prove something against real competition.

I'll tell you this - you missed Ed Davis not just being cognitive enough to pass out of double teams, he's smart enough to see a double coming in the middle of his post up moves and find the open man before the double arrives. On top of that he makes nice outlet passes to start breaks, makes nice skip passes, or just makes the simple pass to a perimeter player before setting a screen. And yes he passes big to big very well. He keeps the ball moving. It's his natural disposition. He's a basketball player with very good team instincts.

Cognitive would be about the last word I would use to describe Andrea. His lack of awareness is a huge problem on both ends. He rarely even follows his own missed shots. With the volume of use he has seen in the last four years, he has never shown any kind of inclination to pass out of double teams in a timely and effective manner, nor drive and dish. He shoots from long range, and when he drives, makes up his mind and crashes into defenders or tosses up awkward shots while trying to avoid defenders. He does look good in the post, but almost always does so early in games when the team is irking to get him going, and he doesn't get going by passing. I mean look at his assist totals. Where are you seeing this great awareness, and again - where are the results?
Ed was bad on the defensive end last night.... the big run they made in the fourth was with the small lineup. Is he passing well, sure, but it also helps that Jose and AA are on fire from downtown right now when earlier in the season we were missing those open shots.

As for Andrea not being a cognitive player... it's an assumption. Either he's lazy or he's dumb... which one is it this time?
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2012, 08:03 PM   #40 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,427
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

As for Andrea not being a cognitive player... it's an assumption. Either he's lazy or he's dumb... which one is it this time?
Does it matter which it is? Either way he's hurting the squad more than he's helping it when he's out there.
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24