Bryan, our great GM - Page 2
Old 04-13-2008, 07:38 PM   #21 (permalink)
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If his philosophy will be perfect he will be GOD and he won't be here, he is growing as the same pace as the team, when you bring or take away players you gamble, what are you supposed to do with a guy who tell you when he want to play(Tj: "I want to be a starter"). Do you think that is under BC philosophy?. There are to many aspects on the team that they have to change but you can't address those overnight. And if you were watching some of the games around Dec-Jan, we were playing like a +50 wins team, so we have talent but it's not happening, in any case I won't be surprised to be one of those +50wins team for next year.
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:44 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ACIEEARL40 View Post
BC = MJ of GM's
:O

you mean to tell me that BC forces women to have abortions!!
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Old 04-13-2008, 07:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
:O

you mean to tell me that BC forces women to have abortions!!
He gambles and defers to others more in big situations than people care to notice, but gets all of the glory.

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Old 04-13-2008, 07:59 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ACIEEARL40 View Post
He gambles and defers to others more in big situations than people care to notice, but gets all of the glory.
oh, i thought you were talking about whenever he's asked about politics he responds by telling people that republicans wear nikes too! :P

totally agree with you. wasn't it jim kelly who brought in jamario?
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:35 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I think it's awefully easy to sit back and critique a guys decisions from the safety of your own living room.

And I KNOW it's MUCH harder to build a champion out of a basement dweller in two years than the likes on this board seem to think it is.
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Old 04-13-2008, 10:56 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Please take the time to read my comments, as I did for yours .

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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
[Colangelo] is a failure.
Bit harsh, no? We were a bottom 5 team when he signed up, yet made the playoffs the following year. What exactly are your expectations for the guy?

Our previous GM joined a team that was 33-49. In his almost two years as GM we went 33-49 again and then 27-55. With Colangelo we went 47-35 and now somewhere around 41-41.

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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
i was pretty excited to see him sign as our president and general manager, but past the hype behind his name and tenure with the suns, you have to realize that both is logic and philosophy is flawed. if anything, it was handcrafted for the MLSE quota of play-off revenue over trying to win a championship.
He's not Jesus. We knew that already. It's very hard to build a contender, and you need a lot of luck. We got shafted by getting the #1 pick in a year with no consensus #1. Shit happens. That's called life.

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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
reading these threads about BC's comments on this seasons disappointments, you can see that he clearly lacks accountability for the players he brought to our team.
If he doesn't bring in those pieces, we continue to be a cellar dweller team. Everybody complains and Colangelo takes heat for not doing his job and making us better. Can you see how, using your line of argumentation, Colangelo is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't?


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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
i understand that a lot of my friends here at raptorsforum don't like sam mitchell, but do realize that his hand has been continuously forced into trying to rectify previous mistakes made by the gm, such as;
Mitchell has a 5+ deep bench. Yet, he has no set rotation and is constantly trying to figure out who should play when. That's not being forced into playing players, that's not knowing what the fuck you're doing.

And where do you get this 'continuously forced into trying to rectify previous mistakes by the GM' from? You're simply speculating there.

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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
-bargs over rasho. no coach in their right mind trying to win games would have an offensive-defensive liability playing over our best interior defender who plays within the offense.
You have to develop talent sometime. We're not a championship team. Players improve most by playing in games. Rasho is already in his 30's. I love Rasho and he's key for us to do anything in the playoffs, but we have to develp Bargs for the future at some point too.

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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
-tj ford over calderon. clearly tj being re-entered into the starting line-up was a choice made with the summer in mind. our coach isn't trying to boost players value and show that his injuries are not a concern. why would he? what exactly does he have to gain by playing the less effective player more minutes?
Speculation and/or hearsay. Where is your proof?


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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
-kapono not being utilized. think of yourself being the coach. would you want kapono on the court long enough to be utilized? we don't have the personnel to pick-up after defensive liabilities being that nearly every single roster spot is one, or close to it.
How could you possibly put not running plays for Kapono or giving him minutes on the GM? We have Primoz Brezec on the roster, as well as Joey Graham, Humphries, Delfino, Moon, Maceo Baston. Surely some combination of players could enable Kapono to play at some point in games? Yet our coach hasn't tried any of them...

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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
i know it's easy to fall under BCs spell, but realize that he doesn't appreciate defensive side of the game enough to become an NBA champion. he talks about gaining toughness like it's our top priority. hasn't this been our top priority for the past six-seven seasons? when you address our need for toughness by signing jason kapono, do you really feel like someone is doing their job towards making us a winner? or do you feel like someone is doing their job at trying to make us offensively exciting? a team that can out-dual enough teams to make it to the play-offs, but nothing more.
You make a good point in that Colangelo has not brought in defensive minded players. Parker is OK (a bit weaker than Mo Pete); Kapono obviously is useless. Delfino is actually quite solid on D, he just goes for a lot of charges and won't get calls in TO (plus some games we play him more than others, plus he's inconsistent). Garbo was actually very savvy on D, but he's been out for a year now. The rest of his pickups are unspectacular on D.

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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
am i defending mitchell? yes. do his game decisions cost us? yes

but if you give a carpenter a job with no tools and no supplies, what do you really expect out of them?

gaining the credibility that BC brought us was great considering all the turmoil that this team has face, but realize that with BC running this team that somethings like protecting his pride will coming over protecting the basket.
If you're a good coach, you make due with what you have. If you're a carpenter and are given piles and piles of wood, you don't sit around bitching and moaning about how shitty progress is coming on your marble house.

What we have is a damn fine offensively talented team with two pass-first point guards and an offence that lately has had a tendency to stagnate. We run almost no plays besides screen and rolls. We misuse every offensive talent we have on this team, including Bosh.

We have a team that is deep, can score, and has veterans. Colangelo has brought in pieces. Not enough for a championship, but certainly more than should go 6-15 at any point in the season. It's not all on the coach, but come on!

Clearly our improvement last season was because of a roster overhaul. In our starting five alone, four of the five players were new faces! We added something like 8 new guys to the team last year, jettisoned a bunch of crap, and won 47 games. Our young talent has made few strides this year other than Jose Calderon. Bargnani has curiously regressed. That's a coaching problem, not a GM problem.

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Old 04-14-2008, 01:45 AM   #27 (permalink)
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1. my expectations fall directly into improving on our weaknesses. no team improves by masking their problems by addressing their strengths. take the spurs for example. each season they address their main weakness come the play-offs, nothing more nothing less. each season their latest addition plays a major role in their post-season success. we're not taking a step forward by sitting idle on our lack of interior and perimeter defense. we're constantly exposed by better teams.

2.our turn around was simply amazing, but do realize that BC walked into a near perfect situation with the available cap, expiring contracts, and draft picks laid out on a golden platter. also, the demise of the atlantic played heavily into our favour.

3. i agree with the damned if he does, damned if he doesn't to an extent. it's all based on hindsight, but there isn't any other way to asses the situation we're facing. one thing for sure, which i will keep repeating, he'll remained damned if he doesn't until certain things are addressed.

4. i don't agree with handing out minutes on a competitive team. earn your minutes and show that you belong. there is no way hump should be getting minutes over bargs, but i don't feel uncomfortable when he does. how sam dealt with charlie was perfect. he earned his spot in the rotation, and kept him leveled by removing him once he became too relaxed. he tried the same with bargs, but it became a confidence issue. forgive me, but there shouldn't be an issue with confidence with a 1st overall pick who already played professionally.

5.coaching, the greatest scapegoat i honestly think sam has started giving up. he's in a worse damned if he does, damn if he doesn't situation than BC. he knows it, and he's definitely knows that he isn't the coach for this type of team. i think he'll be great for a team that plays hard.

not that i expect you to remember, but i said at the beginning of the season that i didn't like the make-up of this team. if it wasn't the raptors, i would never cheer for them. they're a weak bunch of jumpshooters. that's Bc's mess.
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Old 04-14-2008, 08:33 AM   #28 (permalink)
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a lot of well laid out points, I guess.

I just think they are off base.
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Old 04-14-2008, 09:07 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I think it's a bit nonsense to say - at this time - that BC is a failure. With all the roster changes he's made we should be thankful to still make the playoffs, especially without any of the changes acquiring a "franchise" type player. It means we the team assembled still plays some decent team ball. Could it be better? sure. I would say BC would have the hardest time - compared to any other GM - to get players to willingly come play for Toronto, even if he had 1st dibs to any available player. Most players still want to play for a US-based team.

Now, if you want to look at failed GM's take a look at Isiah Thomas and Pat Riley (and the other GM's whose teams didn't make the playoffs e.g NJ). Those 2 nose dived their teams in the last 2 years. For big, bright-light cities that comes with all the glitter and celebrity-dom, where players normally like to go and play ... it's a shame neither put a team together that could play better.

Injuries is not an excuse because we have had our fair share.
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Old 04-14-2008, 09:37 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Some of you fans are WAY too fuckin spoiled. Colangelo transformed this team from perennial bottom dwellers into a playoff bound team - in one year. The contracts that he signed with players are no more than 3 years - which allows for a lot of flexibility.
As a basketball community, we're very fortunate to have a guy that thinks outside of the box like Colangelo. He cleared cap space in Jalen Rose and brought in things we needed (ie - A centre to take the load off of Bosh, cleared out a waste of space like Araujo, let Mike James walk, cut Loren Woods, traded Bonner and E.Williams, and looked to Europe for help instead of relying what was out there on the NBA market. The big name FA that year was Ben Wallace. A lot of Rapto fans were clamoring to bring him in. What has he done since he signed that fat contact? And where would this team be if we had an incompetent GM who listed to what the fans and hierachy of MLSE wanted?) Not only does he bring his smart basketball mind and outstanding pedigree with him, he brings a lot of respectability to this team. Did this team have that prior to Colangelo? Hell no. We were the laughingstock of the league, the punchline to every joke.

If we didn't have Colangelo, it would be safe to guarantee that this team would still be a lottery bound team - and who's to say Chris Bosh would have re-signed? Colangelo brings respectability and stability to a franchise that desperately needed it, so I'm sorry if I don't share your same negativity, OP.

By the way, welcome aboard.
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Old 04-14-2008, 09:37 AM   #31 (permalink)
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I think Bc has done okay so far. granted he came into a situation with a shitload of capspace, and the one thing he's done that no other GM has done during their time in toronto is that he's made some moves with the future in clear sight, giving these moves a window to see if they pan out or if he needs to go elsewhere with his money. one of the things that Im pretty sure GMs do, or should do, is give themselves the flexibility to build a team that can adjust to the other moves that other teams have made in their conference so that they can remain competitive for a long time. detroit is a classic case of this. if Joe d makes a move, or drafts a guy, they usually seem to fit into the strong core of the team.
BC has yet to establish the core of this team as they remain largely inconsistent. his moves have been bringing in small pieces to compliment an inconsistent core, which is a mistake, but fortunately, not one thats going to saddle his decisions down the road to make moves and improve the team.

I think his biggest challenge will be getting a coaching staff that can maximize the potential of this roster, and institute a system and style of play that moves towards their strengths and gives the opposition greater difficulty in exposing their weaknesses on a night to night basis. I honestly think that any sort of first round exit, an ugly one anyway, where we get swept pretty much means the end of smitch. which means that BC's toughest decision in the off-season will be whether or not to keep him, and if tweaking this roster, blowing it up is pointless if the culture of this team, which some say hes changed, is contradicted and stymied by the coach.
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Old 04-14-2008, 09:40 AM   #32 (permalink)
saying too many dudes are Tyson Chandler, trying to lead their teams and went nowhere

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You can have cap-space, but it's another story to have the smarts to know what to do with it. Look at the Knicks who bring in guys like Marbury, Crawford, Curry, Randolph. They all have fat contracts. Were those great moves?
The Bulls had cap space a few years ago and used it all on Ben Wallace. Was that a fantastic move?
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Old 04-14-2008, 09:43 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I think his biggest challenge will be getting a coaching staff that can maximize the potential of this roster, and institute a system and style of play that moves towards their strengths and gives the opposition greater difficulty in exposing their weaknesses on a night to night basis. I honestly think that any sort of first round exit, an ugly one anyway, where we get swept pretty much means the end of smitch. which means that BC's toughest decision in the off-season will be whether or not to keep him, and if tweaking this roster, blowing it up is pointless if the culture of this team, which some say hes changed, is contradicted and stymied by the coach.
You hit the nail on the head right there. We all knew this team was going to be one that was going to score a lot of points, and not really defend. That was the idea with Colangelo coming in - his teams in Phoenix always was a run-and-gun team. You need a coach that's going to be in sync with his GM, and I don't think Mitchell is that guy. I'm not advocating to get rid of Mitchell, but I don't think he's on the same page as Colangelo, and something has to give this off-season - whether it's personnel changes on staff or player personnel changes.
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Old 04-14-2008, 09:56 AM   #34 (permalink)
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We're an extremely soft team. I don't know how a guy who brought 75% of the roster here is not responsible for that. Phoenix was soft too.

Don't like the coach? He kept him at the end 2006 and resigned him this past off season. If he had wanted someone else he would've grabbed him.

And lastly Colangelo is not the basketball guru some of you guys think he is, but he is very intelligent man who surrounds himself people who are extremely knowledgeable and makes decisions based on consensus.
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:05 AM   #35 (permalink)
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three moths ago we were winning, going for 50 victories and you all loved our roster and loved BC. BC brough a lot of good pieces around and currently they are not doing their job. Thats the players and the coaching staff fault not BC. Obviously you can say he has made some mistakes, but he has made many more good moves than errors. No GM is perfect.

Our team has the talent to be the 3rd best team in the East, but if they dont play well together, theres not a lot BC can do before summer.
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:08 AM   #36 (permalink)
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No question we're a soft team. When the deals were made, BC brought in Nesterovic, Garbajosa, Humphries and Parker. We already had MoPete on the team. I would say we had a tough team last season. After the injury to Garbo, the loss of MoPete, and Nesterovic used sparringly, we lost a lot of toughness - something that was underestimated and probably overlooked. That's something to address in the off-season.

Mitchell is an okay coach, but I'm not sure whether he fits into Colangelo's plans or not. That's something to be seen.

And labelling Colangelo as a guru is a little extreme, Acie, but you are right, he's a very intelligent cat and brings in a lot of very good basketball minds to confer with - which is a smart thing to begin with.
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Old 04-14-2008, 10:27 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Wait for it...
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:14 PM   #38 (permalink)
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i'm not taking the addition of BC for granted. i understand, and greatly appreciate what his name does for this organization.

that is not what i'm talking about.

you can talk about coaching changes all you want, hell you can even talk about transforming a player like Bargs into a center if you wish. the bottom line is that none of these problems/solutions are going to change the fact that we're not going to be successful under this current philosophy. in order to improve, BC is going to have to approach our team with a different mentality then what brought him his acclaimed status. run and gun doesn't work. every championship team (showtime arguably) for as long as i can remember were both half-court orientated and strong defensively.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:36 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TuggleBled View Post
i'm not taking the addition of BC for granted. i understand, and greatly appreciate what his name does for this organization.

that is not what i'm talking about.

you can talk about coaching changes all you want, hell you can even talk about transforming a player like Bargs into a center if you wish. the bottom line is that none of these problems/solutions are going to change the fact that we're not going to be successful under this current philosophy. in order to improve, BC is going to have to approach our team with a different mentality then what brought him his acclaimed status. run and gun doesn't work. every championship team (showtime arguably) for as long as i can remember were both half-court orientated and strong defensively.
we're in the bottom half of the league in terms of fast break points. we're pretty much a walk it up, set up the half court, drive and kick kind of team. while we lack the defensive, and i would argue, overall intensity required to be a good team, i think his philosophy of a high powered offense built around a quick point guard, dominant big man and shooters abounding is a winning formula. the formula i just descirbed is san antonio to a T. while many argue that san antonio isnt a high powered offensive team, they've demonstrated that they have the capabilities to score out of the building as displayed against phoenix a few years ago in the playoffs. they a very versatile team with the capabilities of doing it on both ends if need be.
they've got the quick guard in parker (forderon), dominant big in duncan (bosh), and shooters everywhere. the main difference i think is that san antonio has better players and execution and experience, obviously, but the next piece to this formula that BC is missing is the Manu type of three, who can slash, defend, rebound, hit threes, take charges and play out on the perimeter with the best of em.

so i disagree with your point about formula and vision. i think its there, but the personel isn't there yet or ever, and the coach is no popovich.
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Old 04-14-2008, 12:39 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Except for possible suggestions, I think BC will let Mitchell coach the team his (Mitchell's) way. So, if the team is weak defensively, that problem lies mostly on the coach. But I agree, our players are generally soft (defensively). So, on this matter BC could have done better. But like others, here, have suggested BC might have brought in defensive/proven player(s) of yester-year on fat contracts and ended up in a worst situation.

Considering the loss of Garbo and a few roster changes it is a surprise that our team managed to pull it together to reach the playoffs. The usual outcome would have been a break in chemistry and fall out of contention.

BC is not in a GM-Coach role like Isiah Thomas or Pat Riley. So if our team looks unprepared that's a coaching problem.

Certainly, there can be improvement, but I wouldn't give BC a "failing" grade. Quite the opposite, actually.
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