Brian Colangelo, the Italian connection and bias? - Page 2
Old 11-29-2009, 11:17 PM   #21 (permalink)
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The problem with Toronto franchises is they don't need to win to make money. Toronto is a sports town with terrible teams. But the Maple leafs are the most expensive NHL franchise even though they are the knicks of hockey, and the Raptors have some of the most expensive seats and they still manage to sell better than most the NBA teams. We also have Raptor's TV which is another money making scam IMO.

Honestly I think the problem here is the Raptor's are trying to attract fans from Europe because of the growing craze with basketball. It's a shame really.
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Old 11-30-2009, 04:50 AM   #22 (permalink)
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You forgot to mention Mark Iavaroni. I'm sure he has some Italian background too. As one other poster mentioned in another thread, he's responsible for the defense of Raptors. He was terrible as the head coach in Memphis, yet he was hired by Raptors. The result didn't change.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:24 AM   #23 (permalink)
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You forgot to mention Mark Iavaroni. I'm sure he has some Italian background too. As one other poster mentioned in another thread, he's responsible for the defense of Raptors. He was terrible as the head coach in Memphis, yet he was hired by Raptors. The result didn't change.
I totally forgot about that one..

Damn, the plot thickens even more.. BC is like a kid in a candy store. He knew he couldn't pull this kind of shit in Phoenix that's why he came here. He knew people here would give him absolute power to do anything he wants.
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Old 11-30-2009, 05:59 AM   #24 (permalink)
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i think david stern is biased cuz most NBA players are black
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:02 AM   #25 (permalink)
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You can also add Mike Dantoni to your list while he was in Phx..

However honestly, this is the last of my concerns with the team but he does have to get rid of Bargs eventually and Mauricio would be pissed about it... probably cause a problem there.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:31 AM   #26 (permalink)
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i think david stern is biased cuz most NBA players are black
I have no bad feelings about Italians, they are mostly good and fun people. but they are not known to be the best basketball people like Brazilians are in football. If an NBA team has a bunch Italian people, that may raise an eyebrow IMO.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:47 AM   #27 (permalink)
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it is a matter of public record that colangelo wanted to create an international-friendly team in toronto, in part because there is a lot of talent outside north america, and in part to battle the idea that american players don't want to play in canada. this should be of no surprise to anyone that has followed the team closely.

now take some of the moves in isolation:

-bargs was a good selection as the #1 pick. no one was really targeting gay and roy, so let's not rehash that argument again.
-maurizio, although he is italian, was considered the foremost expert on european basketball, so bringing him in made a lot of sense considering the euro-friendly vision they had in mind.
-belinelli was obtained for devean george. that was clearly a good trade, regardless of nationality. it also is a good idea to pair together teammates that already have a bond when you are making so many changes at once. belinelli and Bargs connect, jack and Bosh connect, rasho has history with the team. this move made lots of sense in many ways.
-kapono is not italian.
-triano was already here, and it was much more his canadian-ness than any italian background that got him that new contract.
-in it's earliest incarnation, calangelo's Raptors were more spain-centric than italy-centric, and we have had players of many different nationalities.

there is no doubt that he created a euro-friendly team. there is also no doubt that there is considerable basketball talent in italy. combining these two things is a good idea, as long as the team maintains some balance (which it hasn't, but the imbalance is on the defenseive end, and nationality has little to do with defense). also, it would come as a great surprise to me if colangelo didn't use his family connections to try to make the team better. if those connections are in italy so be it.

has it worked? maybe, maybe not. to me it's too early to tell. but is it a problem simply because of nationality? absolutely not.

this is all much ado about nothing.
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:08 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I want to know what some people have against the Italians!
Ok, Colangelo choose Gherardini, Bargnani and Belinelli but this doesn't mean that its policy is to be surrounded by Italians. Maybe chose them only because he believed they were the right people ... or not??
If some believe that Italians do not work well why doesn't ask to Colangelo to try with the Spanish? Calderon already there, might call Garbajosa and then try to engage the Gasol brothers and Rubio (thinking it wouldn't be all bad).

Obviously I wanted to be sarcastic. The sense is that if you don't like how Bargnani plays criticized him and not the Italians referring to "hypothetical conspiracies" to monopolize the Raptors.

Thanks and sorry for the bad english
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Old 11-30-2009, 01:19 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
it is a matter of public record that colangelo wanted to create an international-friendly team in toronto, in part because there is a lot of talent outside north america, and in part to battle the idea that american players don't want to play in canada. this should be of no surprise to anyone that has followed the team closely.

now take some of the moves in isolation:

-bargs was a good selection as the #1 pick. no one was really targeting gay and roy, so let's not rehash that argument again.
-maurizio, although he is italian, was considered the foremost expert on european basketball, so bringing him in made a lot of sense considering the euro-friendly vision they had in mind.
-belinelli was obtained for devean george. that was clearly a good trade, regardless of nationality. it also is a good idea to pair together teammates that already have a bond when you are making so many changes at once. belinelli and Bargs connect, jack and Bosh connect, rasho has history with the team. this move made lots of sense in many ways.
-kapono is not italian.
-triano was already here, and it was much more his canadian-ness than any italian background that got him that new contract.
-in it's earliest incarnation, calangelo's Raptors were more spain-centric than italy-centric, and we have had players of many different nationalities.

there is no doubt that he created a euro-friendly team. there is also no doubt that there is considerable basketball talent in italy. combining these two things is a good idea, as long as the team maintains some balance (which it hasn't, but the imbalance is on the defenseive end, and nationality has little to do with defense). also, it would come as a great surprise to me if colangelo didn't use his family connections to try to make the team better. if those connections are in italy so be it.

has it worked? maybe, maybe not. to me it's too early to tell. but is it a problem simply because of nationality? absolutely not.

this is all much ado about nothing.

Bravo!

Great breakdown, couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 11-30-2009, 02:28 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
it is a matter of public record that colangelo wanted to create an international-friendly team in toronto, in part because there is a lot of talent outside north america, and in part to battle the idea that american players don't want to play in canada. this should be of no surprise to anyone that has followed the team closely.

now take some of the moves in isolation:

-bargs was a good selection as the #1 pick. no one was really targeting gay and roy, so let's not rehash that argument again.
-maurizio, although he is italian, was considered the foremost expert on european basketball, so bringing him in made a lot of sense considering the euro-friendly vision they had in mind.
-belinelli was obtained for devean george. that was clearly a good trade, regardless of nationality. it also is a good idea to pair together teammates that already have a bond when you are making so many changes at once. belinelli and Bargs connect, jack and Bosh connect, rasho has history with the team. this move made lots of sense in many ways.
-kapono is not italian.
-triano was already here, and it was much more his canadian-ness than any italian background that got him that new contract.
-in it's earliest incarnation, calangelo's Raptors were more spain-centric than italy-centric, and we have had players of many different nationalities.

there is no doubt that he created a euro-friendly team. there is also no doubt that there is considerable basketball talent in italy. combining these two things is a good idea, as long as the team maintains some balance (which it hasn't, but the imbalance is on the defenseive end, and nationality has little to do with defense). also, it would come as a great surprise to me if colangelo didn't use his family connections to try to make the team better. if those connections are in italy so be it.

has it worked? maybe, maybe not. to me it's too early to tell. but is it a problem simply because of nationality? absolutely not.

this is all much ado about nothing.
Clear, simple and fair...I fully agree
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:16 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jaedenky77 View Post
Winning = selling tickets

being biased due to nationality = compromising the goal of winning for personal agenda and favoritism

compromising the goal of winning for personal agenda and favoritism = losing

losing = not selling tickets

As for your last statement, I'm not getting all pissed off about it but I'm surprised that such an obvious thing is never mentioned so I decided to bring it up. True that I can't control it much, but I can still inform people about it, which is what I'm doing here. As for needing a new hobby, I got plenty buddy so why not stay on topic instead of resorting to personal remarks.
Oh ya? ask the knicks if losing doesn't sell tickets.

What you are saying about an italian bias is just complete b.s. Colangelo has been very pro european, but saying he has been pro italian is just ignorant. Mauricio Gerardini, is one of the biggest names in all of europe when it comes down to GM's and he happens to be italian... Wow, so what? Bargnani was and still is a very interesting prospect, and taking him was a risk which i am not willing to admit is considered as a failed pick. Bellinelli was great pickup for what Colangelo gave away.

You need to see things in the perspective that they happen rather then to put a bunch of facts together and call them a bias.

Even though he does seem to be looking heavily into the european market, maybe that is just because he feels that there is talent there at much better prices, and with a multicultural city like Toronto, bringing in talented international players is a great business move.

Many people at the beginning of this season thought this was a well rounded team, and I personnaly think it's still a matter of time before they put it together.
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:17 PM   #32 (permalink)
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+ what 'trane said...
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:21 PM   #33 (permalink)
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hmm thats actually pretty interesting...nice find, wouldve never noticed all of them are italien and also vice president is also italien btw...
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:22 PM   #34 (permalink)
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^ what he said!!
When the shot wasn't going, what was?????
his tear drop shots were okay if u ask me
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:44 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 'trane View Post
it is a matter of public record that colangelo wanted to create an international-friendly team in toronto, in part because there is a lot of talent outside north america, and in part to battle the idea that american players don't want to play in canada. this should be of no surprise to anyone that has followed the team closely.

now take some of the moves in isolation:

-bargs was a good selection as the #1 pick. no one was really targeting gay and roy, so let's not rehash that argument again.
-maurizio, although he is italian, was considered the foremost expert on european basketball, so bringing him in made a lot of sense considering the euro-friendly vision they had in mind.
-belinelli was obtained for devean george. that was clearly a good trade, regardless of nationality. it also is a good idea to pair together teammates that already have a bond when you are making so many changes at once. belinelli and Bargs connect, jack and Bosh connect, rasho has history with the team. this move made lots of sense in many ways.
-kapono is not italian.
-triano was already here, and it was much more his canadian-ness than any italian background that got him that new contract.
-in it's earliest incarnation, calangelo's Raptors were more spain-centric than italy-centric, and we have had players of many different nationalities.

there is no doubt that he created a euro-friendly team. there is also no doubt that there is considerable basketball talent in italy. combining these two things is a good idea, as long as the team maintains some balance (which it hasn't, but the imbalance is on the defenseive end, and nationality has little to do with defense). also, it would come as a great surprise to me if colangelo didn't use his family connections to try to make the team better. if those connections are in italy so be it.

has it worked? maybe, maybe not. to me it's too early to tell. but is it a problem simply because of nationality? absolutely not.

this is all much ado about nothing.
I guess we'll agree to disagree then, I believe that Colangelos decision making has been affected by his favoritism of Italians. What about Mark Ivaroni as our defensive coach, he was unneffective with Memphis yet he is given a crucial job as the defensive coach, you think nationality didn't play a role in BC's decision?

It seems that every year Bargnani is given a bigger role with the team yet the team gets worse every year defensively. No NBA franchise will ever win a championship with a starting center who refuses to anchor the defense, block out and battle for boards. So what if he can hit 3's? that's a role best left to guards and wing players anyways. If his natural position is PF then why did BC draft him knowing Bosh was already here?

Why did BC decide to come here right when we had the 1st pick? It's because he's wanted to draft fellow countrymen Bargnani, BC is not looking at things from an objective standpoint but rather as a nationalistic fanboy. Why do you think everyone knows that he would never part with Bargs, you think if Bargs was Asian/Black/Hispanic that he would feel the quite the same connection with Bargs?

Did the Raptors really need yet another 3 point shooter like Bellinelli instead of trading for or signing a defensive wing player?

Did Sam Mitchell really deserve to be fired for having a winning record and winning Coach of the year?

Did Jay Triano really deserve a contract extension after the Raptors underachieving season last year?

I have no problem with having an international team or having Italian players on the roster. What I do have a problem with is when a GM bases his decision making on the basis of nationalism instead of winning. My nationality is Korean/Canadian, you think if I was the GM and I got a bunch of Koreans as the coaches and players that it wouldn't raise an eyebrow or two? Since Italians are not a visible minority, it's less obvious to people what BC is doing. I believe that BC is a very talented GM but anybody operating with ethnocentric biases will always be handicapped in such a job.
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:57 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I want to know what some people have against the Italians!
Ok, Colangelo choose Gherardini, Bargnani and Belinelli but this doesn't mean that its policy is to be surrounded by Italians. Maybe chose them only because he believed they were the right people ... or not??
If some believe that Italians do not work well why doesn't ask to Colangelo to try with the Spanish? Calderon already there, might call Garbajosa and then try to engage the Gasol brothers and Rubio (thinking it wouldn't be all bad).

Obviously I wanted to be sarcastic. The sense is that if you don't like how Bargnani plays criticized him and not the Italians referring to "hypothetical conspiracies" to monopolize the Raptors.

Thanks and sorry for the bad english
I have nothing against Italians, they're wonderfull people. Whenever I'd go over to an Italian friends house they would prepare all this great food and treat me like family.

What I am against is BC's bias towards Italian players/coaches, this isn't his personal playground, it's a NBA franchise with millions of fans. In a job such as his any and all bias should be eliminated, you leave that shit at home and when you come to work you do whats in the best interest of the franchise.

This isn't about being Italian this is about nationalism affecting the judgement of a general manager.
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:53 PM   #37 (permalink)
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just to be clear, colangelo is american, not italian.

iavaroni was brought in here because he is supposed to be a top-notch assistant coach with a record for defense. you could argue that this is not working, but it is undeniable that his reputation was such when he was hired.

your point about bc coming to toronto only to draft Bargs has no basis in reality since we didn't have the #1 pick when he was hired.
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:13 PM   #38 (permalink)
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just to be clear, colangelo is american, not italian.

iavaroni was brought in here because he is supposed to be a top-notch assistant coach with a record for defense. you could argue that this is not working, but it is undeniable that his reputation was such when he was hired.

your point about bc coming to toronto only to draft Bargs has no basis in reality since we didn't have the #1 pick when he was hired.
Colangelo is Italian/American. He is of Italian descent and judging by his favoritism of other Italians, he obviously still identifies strongly with his roots.

Iavaroni did nothing in Memphis, there is clearly something wrong with the Raptors defensive systems. BC could have gotten someone better for the job.

Bargnani would probably have been available anywhere in the top 10. It was a surprise by most analysts at #1. He has a PF type game, Bosh was already here. I think Bargs is a tweener, definitely can't play at the C, would probably get abused at the 4 by quicker PF.

Like I said we'll agree to disagree:

I look at:

-Colangelo
-Gerardhini
-Bargnani
-Triano
-Iavaroni
-Bellinelli

I see an obvious pattern, you don't see anything and consider it all a coincidence. Fine with me...
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:14 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I see an obvious pattern, you don't see anything and consider it all a coincidence. Fine with me...
that would be a complete misrepresentation of my position.
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