Bosh vs Bargnani... haters discuss! But here's my unsolicted take on it.

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Old 12-14-2010, 03:25 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Raptors Bosh vs Bargnani... haters discuss! But here's my unsolicted take on it.

So I've been reading lots of forum chit chat. Seems like the comparison chatter hasn't stopped. Thought I'd put my 2.5 cents in...

Now first of all Bargnani and Bosh are two completely different players. Bosh is a guy who likes the ball a good 10 feet from the rim so he can use his speed to beat his opponents. He's got a solid shot from there as wekk. But don't mistake this... he has virtually no post moves at all. He's got a good spin move that works on lesser defenders, but that's it. (that's the one you see him slamming once a week on highlight reels.) His hands are aways suspect... hence the nick name "Bobble-Hands Bosh." and he can't guard any of the better post players in his position. Also he tends to shoot a lot more jumpers when guarded by better post players. (ala D. Howard, Garnett, etc.) Also passing out of the double team he tends to just throw it out to the guys waiting in the wings and doesn't really see cutting guys, going to the rim. (he of course doesn't need to worry about this any more, because he's not being double teamed.) On the plus side when Bosh gets cranked up and Angry, he seems to be able to defend anyone, and score at will. Unfortunately in my life I've only seen him play that way maybe 20 times. My last note on Bosh is this, I was a fan of Bosh, but as I remember him, he choked more times than not of final shots at the end of the game. (often with him fumbling the ball.) And though I've always said he's an all-star, he's definitely a 2nd team one... not first team. And not an elite player.

Bargnani, is a very classically skilled European style player. Great shooting from anywhere. (is it just me or do you think he could shoot a ball from half court like it was a free throw?) The nice thing that he's developed over the summer is some actual post moves, deep in the post. I've seen some up and unders, (or as I like to call it... the Kevin McHale.), the baby hook, and the step back. Hopefully this is just the start and he increases his repertoire over the next couple years. He actually has great hands for a big guy, and does have that ice cold end of the game shot going. Seriously even his rookie year, he nailed those important 3's... (yeah, yeah he missed that one a few games back... but it wasn't really set up well for him.) Now, Bargnanin is still a work in progress.

Anyone familiar with Dirk Novitski, knows that their team hated him basically the first 5 years of his career too. (inconsistant play from a high draft pick... sounds familiar.) It took Steve Nash to get his confidence up to become the player he is today. Bargnani needs to work on getting mad (like the way he got in that Indiana game) more often. He plays great defence when he's pissed and crashes the boards much better. I think when it comes down to things though... he's still not a natural rebounder. (bosh wasn't either... he just played 40 minutes a game... your bound to get a rebound just standing their. Yes Bargs plays about that in minutes too... but it's pretty hard to rebound from the 3 point line. Bosh didn't have that excuse.) I think when Bargnani becomes an all-star (I'm thinking next year maybe.) He'll probably still only average about 6 or 7 rebounds.... (for those who don't think he'll be an all-star... lets put it this way... Bosh wouldn't have been an all-star if he wasn't in Toronto... there were plenty of guys with the same or better than Bosh the last couple years (i.e Gerald Wallace or David Lee who was a 20 point 11 rebound guy.) it helps having a whole country voting for you. And even if he doesn't deserve it... I'm sure canada will give Andrea B. the nod, and get him in there.

To finish up on Barnani... I'm going to pick him as the guy who's going to make more of an impact in his career for the Raptors. His ability to nail 3's is much more valuable than Bosh's congesting of the post. When I watch Raptor games, I'm just amazed at the ease in which Bargnani scores... (specially some of those sweet moves against Boston. uh... the first time... when they one. lol) The fact that Bargnani can score deep in the post and see's more passing options than Bosh out of the double team also gives him the nod for me over Bosh. Unfortunately, and this where Bosh was better, he suffers from the Eurocentric problem of non-selfishness. Just no swagger at all right now.. and he needs to get a chip on his shoulder. ( I wonder if Michael Vic is available to do a little dog fighting training with him, to get him all rilled up... and build a chip?)

Alright,
And that's how I "C" it! (yeah... corny ... I was going for that.)
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:05 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Bosh wasn't voted into the All-Star game, so having a whole country vote for him didn't help whatsoever.

He was purely clutch last season. And he defended extremely well. And he was passing better and more often than Bargnani (who has had what now, one very nice game that featured anything that could be said to be unselfish).

Here's the one big plus with Bargnani - there is no way that he is going to carry a team by himself. It was at this point last season that Bosh put together a stretch of games that made it look like the playoffs were a sure bet. Then when he went down and the team needed Andrea to step up, he laid down. He's been called the second best player on a really good team, by one of his biggest fans here. And what you really need is a very complete team. Bosh could have used as much as well, but the past is the past, and that never came together. If it doesn't come together here, and Andrea's value continues to rise, then I would hope that he gets moved for the pieces that form a complete team for the next in line. It's never going to be about one player versus another, and if that's how fans are going to look at things they are going to continue to see more of the same, which hasn't been pretty, and certainly still isn't.
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:19 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I know Bargnani is not at an MVP or elite type level, but i will take him over Chris Bosh 10 times out of 10. Hands down.
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Bosh wasn't voted into the All-Star game, so having a whole country vote for him didn't help whatsoever.

He was purely clutch last season. And he defended extremely well. And he was passing better and more often than Bargnani (who has had what now, one very nice game that featured anything that could be said to be unselfish).

Here's the one big plus with Bargnani - there is no way that he is going to carry a team by himself. It was at this point last season that Bosh put together a stretch of games that made it look like the playoffs were a sure bet. Then when he went down and the team needed Andrea to step up, he laid down. He's been called the second best player on a really good team, by one of his biggest fans here. And what you really need is a very complete team. Bosh could have used as much as well, but the past is the past, and that never came together. If it doesn't come together here, and Andrea's value continues to rise, then I would hope that he gets moved for the pieces that form a complete team for the next in line. It's never going to be about one player versus another, and if that's how fans are going to look at things they are going to continue to see more of the same, which hasn't been pretty, and certainly still isn't.
For starters I'm not going to get into the whole "he defended extremely well thing" because we all know that that is not completely true. But I will talk about the overall comparison, especially when you talk about leadership and how at this time last year Bosh was making the playoffs look highly likely. It's not a fair comparison...not only is Bosh a completely different player, he was also a. in the league longer and b. the leader of this team longer. The only comparison that would be valid is if we were to compare Bosh's first season leading this team to this one. I think Bosh lead us to a 27 win campaign if I'm not mistaken. Even so, win's are irrelevant for both squads as the help around that team and this one is very meagre, the only thing that matters would be production and leadership.

production... Bargnani and Bosh both averaged the same ppg essentially, with Bosh rebounding more. Defensively, even though Bosh was, and is not, very astute in this category it is fair to say he's better than Bargnani...at least in his help D, in that he actually does it.

Leadership... Bosh took this team from Vince and did his best. We all remember him as the "next one" to lead us, and he did that. He inspired confidence in this team without much doubt. Bargnani on the other hand inspires more doubt than confidence, however his recent play seems to be swaying that argument more in his favour. But Bosh lead this team far better because a. he was more vocal and b. he had been a leader before in high school and at Georgia Tech, plus the half year before when wince was traded.

So overall, it's close, but Bosh was better at this point and certainly is now. But I think Bargnani can lead a team, it's too early to say "he's not the one, let's go out and get Iggy" or something rash like that. He's the leader. Not DeMar. Certainly not Sonny. And definitely not Julian Wright...but I like that guy, pure hustle!
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:35 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Bosh was certainly no leader. Please let's not fool ourselves. The guy had some good stretches and some big efforts, but leading the team is something he never did.
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:45 AM   #6 (permalink)
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He lead the team to two playoff appearances. That is leading...look at the rosters for those 2 years. Bosh, if anything, was leading by example. But I've seen many interviews where coaches, players, and Bosh himself has addressed his leadership...and what else can we really go on, right.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:01 AM   #7 (permalink)
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He lead the team to two playoff appearances. That is leading...look at the rosters for those 2 years. Bosh, if anything, was leading by example. But I've seen many interviews where coaches, players, and Bosh himself has addressed his leadership...and what else can we really go on, right.
i beg to differ. I recall the teams of the last 3 years or so to have been stuck on a rollercoaster of mediocrity where for all the good stretches, there were equal numbers, actually no... more horrible memories when expectations were so much higher. I also recall well documented player only meetings in such instances a where Bosh had nothing to say. I agree that Bosh tried to 'lead by example', but i did not care to be reminded about how awesome he was at it (by himself no less), when the end product was diddly fucking squat. At least Bargnani doesn't put himself on a pedistal.

Neither are elite, perfect players. Both have weaknesses and strengths, but again i'll take Bargnani 10 times out of 10.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:11 AM   #8 (permalink)
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i beg to differ. I recall the teams of the last 3 years or so to have been stuck on a rollercoaster of mediocrity where for all the good stretches, there were equal numbers, actually no... more horrible memories when expectations were so much higher. I also recall well documented player only meetings in such instances a where Bosh had nothing to say. I agree that Bosh tried to 'lead by example', but i did not care to be reminded about how awesome he was at it (by himself no less), when the end product was diddly fucking squat. At least Bargnani doesn't put himself on a pedistal.

Neither are elite, perfect players. Both have weaknesses and strengths, but again i'll take Bargnani 10 times out of 10.
But you can't deny that you wanted him to re sign here right? If you say no then okay, you were one of the few that wasn't under the "life without Bosh will be horrible!" influence, but if you wanted him back it's because he was a good player who you believe could lead us somewhere. I thought that Bosh did an exemplary job at leading this squad when he was younger and less of an egotist. So you're are right on that one, especially last year when Smitch wasn't here. Smitch didn't care who Bosh was, in fact Smitch as a player would get into Garnett's face, but that's neither here nor there. The fact is is that you wouldn't take Bargnani ten out of ten times because a. you answered yes to my initial question or b. you must concede Bargnani hasn't lead this team anywhere, or even shown the "leader" statistics to back that up. I dunno, I'm tired, maybe I'm wrong and you would take him ten out of ten times, but I know I wouldn't. Maybe in a year that'll change, but remember that Bosh lead us somewhere, gave us hope, and even put us on the map...again, so to speak.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:24 AM   #9 (permalink)
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But you can't deny that you wanted him to re sign here right? If you say no then okay, you were one of the few that wasn't under the "life without Bosh will be horrible!" influence, but if you wanted him back it's because he was a good player who you believe could lead us somewhere.
Oh i certainly didn't want the team to resign him so i am pretty happy with the way things played out.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:47 AM   #10 (permalink)
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love the posts here. Very interesting takes.

I agree with a lot of statements here...

I would still say that I think Bargnani is a better defender than Bosh is on a regular per game basis. Bosh when he played for team USA, and for the first 6 games after that, played amazing defence. Then he realized he couldn't keep that up and post hi offensive numbers. (too much energy.) So he stopped playing hard defence. Now, he's suppose to pay hard nose defence... but he still can't handle any other bigs. Miami always has one of their other guys guard the other teams better Post players. (Same thing happened last year with the Raptors... Bargnani always guarded the harder guy, because we "needed" Bosh for offence.) Bargs on the other hand... well ... barely has to do anything. cuz of his size alone he probably alters close to 10 shots a game. (something stats don't pick up.) He can get big, and make it tough for most players to get around him. He does have problems against really mobile guys though like Stoudamire. (so does everyone in the league right now.) And he does one key thing better than Bosh does. Boxes his man out. Bosh still doesn't do that... watch any Miami game to see what I'm saying is true. (when a shot goes up... he stand up straight and watches the ball.) Also watch any 4 games from last year where Bargnani and Bosh both played at the same time... and you'll see Bargnani boxing out sometimes 2 guys, so that Bosh can get the easy rebound. I swear you can chalk up at least 3 Bosh rebounds a game to Bargnani.

I'm convinced when it comes down to it... Bargnani will be an elite player in this league, and wouldn't trade him EVER! Every GM in the entire league wants a guy like him. (if you troll the US sports pages like I do... he's the number one mentioned guy from Toronto. Because teams view him as a threat. This includes last year. <the threat part>)

Wish some of the fans here on the site would see his value. A guy who spread the Defence.... shoots the 3 with a high accuracy rate. Starting to get some good post moves. Gets an easy 20 points a game, and 5-6 rebounds. (Pau Gasol has averaged 9 rebounds and 19 points per game, and he was the focal point of his teams offence with the Grizzlies and still a huge part of the LA offence.) Bargs just got that nod this year. Don't drink to much haterade on him till you give him a fair shake. I'm not even saying this is his one year to get things right. Give him till next year... if he's not producing the way I think he will, I'll be the first person to say he's not the guy of the future. But till then I'm liking his progression. I swear Bargnani at the top his game... is much more threatening to other teams than Bosh at the top of his game.

He's still young... and growing as a player... his upside is still not even reached. He's been really consistent this year so far. The fact he's doing the numbers he is right now... definitely points to a bright future for him. He just needs to get the confidence to bump himself up to his top level more often. Some of that will come with his team learning to give him the bloody ball in every Quarter at least 6 or 7 times. I swear if they would stop going away from him... he'd probably get 25-30 points a night. He seems to get 10-15 points in the first quarter... and then doesn't see the ball again till late in the 4th, and suddenly ends up with 20 points. His futures bright.

Also... lay off DeRozen.... he's got those second year blues thing going right now. He'll bounce back... hey there's tonnes of other 2nd year guys having off years too. But lets not kid ourself this is an important rebuilding year. With a good chance to even make it into the playoffs because the East is so week. That 8th position is wide open.

Go Raps! At least your fun to watch. 25 point come backs? what?
Love it!

Also a Nod to Triano for Standing up to the Refs for his players (we all know there's been a tonne of un-propportionate foul calls going against the Raptors of late)... I never saw Sam Mitchell do that ever! A red face on Triano looks good!
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:56 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Oh i certainly didn't want the team to resign him so i am pretty happy with the way things played out.
Yeah... dido on this one.

I agree that Bosh was a great light early on during our dark no Vince days.
But... we were grasping at hope and he was the only option at the time.

We're a better defensive team who spread the floor better and play "Team" basketball now that we don't have him.

Who's to argue? Our reboundings better... we're not the last place defensive team in the league anymore. And we're number 1 (or were last time I checked... lets just say top 3 to make sure) on fast break points... which means we're helping to turn the ball over from other teams more.... also a great defensive change.

I'll do think I'll miss the annual Cabbie vs. Bosh Madden football contest on the score though...

Think we can get Bargnani to put on a southern car salesman accent and do a youtube video to get him into the all-star game?

ouu.... or maybe just him eating some pasta.... like he's hungry for a championship.

Yeah.... i just got lame. It happened. I'll own that.
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:04 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Also... lay off DeRozen.... he's got those second year blues thing going right now. He'll bounce back... hey there's tonnes of other 2nd year guys having off years too.
No. This is basketball not hockey and the sophmore jinx is not even close to the same thing as it is in hockey. This game is easier to learn and he should be improving in year 2 not regressing (feel free to look at the stats of ANY good wing for years 1, 2, 3) Derozan is just playing bad.. period.

Bosh was a known quantity last year. Someone that will play kind of interested. Bosh's problem is he could never play at the rate he started the year at. IMO he didn't like the contact and started to initiate it less and less. Not saying he was a pussy but he did do this less after the break. He's a great player. But his problem was that he was nto a team player. By that I mean I think he tried to be, but his game wasn't suited to a team game. It was just iso iso iso. You can't win that way. You'll never see ORs. And for max money, it seemed pointless for the Raptors to remain an average team. At least his leaving will do 2 things. 1. Force change. 2....Bargnani.

Bargnani is an unknown. We all think he has more upside down the road. And he might have. He is skilled. But he needs to grow into the main guy role, and get tougher, to be a superstar... to be great. He needs to improve on D yet again and mentally he needs to become the that wants to sink the dagger. He doesn't have to become a rebounding machine. That can be done by committee.
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:44 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Bosh wasn't voted into the All-Star game, so having a whole country vote for him didn't help whatsoever.

He was purely clutch last season. And he defended extremely well. And he was passing better and more often than Bargnani (who has had what now, one very nice game that featured anything that could be said to be unselfish).

Here's the one big plus with Bargnani - there is no way that he is going to carry a team by himself. It was at this point last season that Bosh put together a stretch of games that made it look like the playoffs were a sure bet. Then when he went down and the team needed Andrea to step up, he laid down. He's been called the second best player on a really good team, by one of his biggest fans here. And what you really need is a very complete team. Bosh could have used as much as well, but the past is the past, and that never came together. If it doesn't come together here, and Andrea's value continues to rise, then I would hope that he gets moved for the pieces that form a complete team for the next in line. It's never going to be about one player versus another, and if that's how fans are going to look at things they are going to continue to see more of the same, which hasn't been pretty, and certainly still isn't.
I don't think Bosh ever defended well. Just because he rebounded well, it doesn't mean he defended.

I did call AB a great second option on a good team, but I would say the same for Bosh. In truth, I think AB would be a better fit for Miami too.... but that doesn't mean he's a better player yet.

You're right, it's never going to be about P vs P, but when you talk about last year, you seem to forget AB was on that team too until you mention Bosh going down. When that happened, the team being so used to feeding Bosh rarely gave AB as many touches.... he's learning this year how to demand it more, and they are also looking for him to.

Bosh just seems like a hard player to build around.... that is my issue. He isn't a good passer, he loves to shoot jumpers..... and he is a poor defender, with similar hops to AB but without the size.
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I was pretty harsh on Bargnani earlier in the year, pretty much saying fuck this guy. And while I remain cautious about my feelings for him and this team, I have to say, he looks completely different than he did starting the season, first ten or so games.
He was scoring, but he was taking a lot of bad rushed shots, and games where he's on the floor for 35 minutes, mustering 20-25 points and 0-2 boards were what I found infuriating.
I know he's no 'Regend', but seeing him nad 7-9 boards to go along with 25-30 has caught my attention. He wants it more now, and like Neo, I think he's starting to believe.
His turnovers are down as well, and he's making the extra pass and playing a little less selfishly. He's figuring out how to be the man, and he's playing confidently.
The thing I like about him over Bosh is that he can score from anywhere on the floor, and I think for his size, he's getting a lot better at putting it on the floor, taking contact, and finishing in the lane.
Once he figures out how to handle teams adjusting to him, and uses his teammates to help him get his shots where and when he wants them, I think I'll be ready to take him off notice. Still not there yet though.
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Old 12-14-2010, 11:39 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Bosh is averaging 18pts/8reb as the third option on a talented team. I wonder what Bargnani would average as a 3rd option. Hell he was #2 option here last season and could get that.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:18 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Bosh is averaging 18pts/8reb as the third option on a talented team. I wonder what Bargnani would average as a 3rd option. Hell he was #2 option here last season and could get that.
18 and 8 as a third option playing 35+ minutes a game.... and seeing as how the Heat only have 3 options, i guess thats what was expected, wasnt it?
in fact, those numbers are less than people predicted going into this season... people were saying he should grab 12 rebs a game.

if people want to say that Bosh lead us to 2 playoff appearances, why cant we also say he led us to countless non-playoff appearances and mediocre seasons of shit. he was no leader. he was a black hole.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:40 PM   #17 (permalink)
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OK.... let's start dispelling some misconceptions here... because there are many.

1) "Bosh isn't/wasn't clutch." - Really? Because I can recall him sinking 3 or 4 gamewinners last season... WAS... PHI... CHI... ORL... (and there was the shot that he sunk against the Lakers that ws one-upped by Kobe a few seconds later to win the game). Bosh had trouble in the clutch IN THE PAST because teams just loaded up on him defensively. No post player is going to score through a double or triple team. It's a prayer for even the very best wing players in the NBA. When Bosh saw single coverage in late game situations he was damn near unstoppable.

2) "Bosh's rebounds were all luck... anyone could have got that many" - Again... really? Why was it that we never saw Bargs or anyone else pulling down 15 rebounds when Bosh was out? And the idea that Bosh doesn't OREB? Huh? Where are people getting THAT idea? Let's do a little comparison work shall we?

Bosh (09/10): 2.9 OREBS/gm

Boozer (09/10): 2.3 OREBS/gm

TD (09/10): 2.8 OREBS/gm

Dirk (09/10): 1.0 OREBS/gm

Pau (09/10): 3.7 OREBS/gm


Hmmmm.... doesn't seem too bad to me when you consider the fact that Bosh had the least help of any of those guys.

Let's move on....

3) "Bosh wasn't a team player". - OK.... why? Because he couldn't avg. more assists than Jason Kidd? He was the team's primary offensive weapon and never played with a single all-star along side him. Again.. you compare him to Dirk... Duncan... Boozer... Amare... do ANY of these guys do anything different? Do guys like Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant strike you as "team players"? Their job is to score the ball. THAT's how they contribute to their team. And THAT's what Bosh did (along with rebounding and getting to the FT line). Just by being on the floor he created more open shots for his teammates.

4) "Bargs is a better defender than Bosh" - Bosh wasn't a world-beater on that end by any means but Bargs certainly isn't any better. I've yet to see him shut ANYONE down 1-on-1 this season... and his help D? It's probably the absolute worst in the league for a big man. I saw games last season where Bosh would step up on defense down the stretch and make a big play (block, or rebound) to secure a win for us... how many times have you seen the same from Bargs?

5) "Bosh wasn't a leader" - He led on the court. He battled under the rim. He was relentless attacking the basket and getting to the line. He was emotional. What he WASN'T was KG or Kobe. Lots of players aren't.... why fault him for that? Again... give me that any day over a guy like Bargs who looks like he couldn't give 2 shits WHAT happens most of the time.

6) "Bosh was just an OK player putting up big numbers on a bad team" - Alright.... yet he's avging about 18 & 8 so far one most talent-laden teams in the league right now and STILL putting up double-doubles on occasion. But NOW it's just because "Bosh plays with Wade and Bron and things are easy for him... ANY player could avg good numbers beside those guys"... so which is it? I'd sure like to know....


Some people on this board have VERY short memories to say the least.... You can be pissed at Bosh for leaving (and for the WAY that he left) but to try to slander the guy's game now that he's no longer a Raptor is just stupid. He played his ass off for this team on a nightly basis and did his level best to win us games. That's all you can ask of a player.

As for Bargs? He's driven me mad for years now, but credit to him, he's FINALLY taking some steps in the right direction and proving himself to be a valuable piece of the team. Does that mean he's better than Bosh? HELL NO. But he's what we need at the moment given the make up of the team.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:44 PM   #18 (permalink)
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For people saying Bosh was no leader, considering this is a Bosh vs Bargs thread, how the hell is Bargs any sort of on the court leader? Guy won't even speak to people it seems half the time.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:55 PM   #19 (permalink)
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This thread is just a misguided thread.

TorRaptor, whilst you make some good points, you also present some misleading arguments too.

This whole debate is ridiculous. It's not about player vs player, but rather about the fit. Bosh was a ball dominant jumpshooting bigman that was undersized on defence (to his own admittance) and yet he rebounded well for the time he was here. This team fed him the ball far too often, and he held it far too often. This team moves the ball much better, and AB is still growing as a player, whereas Bosh has seemingly plateaued. For this team, at this point, Bosh was not a good fit.

They only sometimes play the same position, and clearly were not a good fit together. Bosh supporters argue he carried this team, retractors argue he did but not very far. Who really cares?

AB 8M vs CB 15M is the real argument.

Last edited by carp; 12-14-2010 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:09 PM   #20 (permalink)
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One last thing that I forgot.... the idea that "Bosh just wasn't an easy player to build around". This idea was actually peddled by our very own GM! It's really a load of B.S. though....

DAL features Dirk... who's a ball-dominant, jumpshooting, minimal defense-playing, big man.

And they're KILLING IT this season. Just got their 12-game winning streak snapped.

So how are they doing it?

Answer: They've paired up Dirk with 3 players that compliment his skills perfectly. Chandler, Kidd and Marion. All 3 play stellar D. All 3 are unselfish. All 3 know their roles and can rebound the basketball.

I have LOVED to have seen what our Raps team could have looked like with a frontline of Bosh/Chandler/Marion with Bargs coming off the bench. I daresay that might have been our first 50 win squad.
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