Bosh: Tough seeing Raptors struggle - Page 4
Old 03-30-2012, 11:00 AM   #61 (permalink)
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SJ, I am using on those teams bolded for a reason. On the Raps, Bosh was anointed a franchise player because he was the most talented guy on the roster, by far. But on the US National team or in Miami, there are players that are clearly better than him and there are enough of them to limit his touches on offence to the point where he becomes a role player. This has nothing to do with him being a bad player - it's just that my definition is not absolute, but a relative one.

I do believe that you've seen my point by now, and if you don't agree - so be it.
i have to agree. it's not a knock on bosh, just a byproduct of the situation he's in. you can't dispute that he plays off of Lebron and Wade, and in a lot of ways they dictate how he plays. Bosh isn't responsible for making people better, or creating for anyone like he was in Toronto (whether he did it or not is irrelevant). Hell, even on D Lebron and Wade are the ones anchoring the system and funneling wings to the middle or to the baseline.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:18 AM   #62 (permalink)
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not my money. i would take those three together here and i don't give a fuck what management pays them.
oh, ok
so you basically agree that Bosh is an overpaid version of luol deng, but you're ok with it because it's not coming out of your pocket.

I guess then we're also in agreement that Bosh is having a disappointing time in Miami (I don't think Miami was looking for a Luol Deng type of player when they went after him - after all nobody is calling Rose + Noah + Deng a "big three").

Since that was my original point, I'm glad we settled that
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:25 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Thats your opinion. In terms of overall game, both ends of the floor, Bosh was superior against Dallas last year.
I'm replying to you, but this is for all those people who claim "Bosh was great in this game or that game".

How is this relevant? Any player can look good in a game or 7 games. Bargnani had 36/6/6 game last year in NY where he completely outplayed Amare. What does that prove?

Both by watching Miami games and by looking at the box scores, it's pretty obvious and should not require any arguments that Bosh is not a central point of that team. He's basically playing off Lebron or Wade and he mostly scores on wide open jump shots or dunks. We all know he can take a lot of PFs one on one and he is pretty good at creating shots. But ask any coach or GM or NBA insider who would prefer to create the shots on that team and you will get 100% consensus that it's Lebron or Wade.

Many if not most people thought Bosh will thrive in Miami because he will get a lot of open shots due to the attention given to Lebron and Wade. I don't think anybody thought he will drop from 24ppg to 18ppg and virtually nobody expected his shot percentages to fall. Despite getting all these open shots, he shoots barely better than Bargnani did last season when he got all the attention from the opposing defense. But even beyond offense, the most shocking thing is his drop in rebounds, blocks and steals. That can't be excused regardless of how you look at it.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:30 AM   #64 (permalink)
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I'm replying to you, but this is for all those people who claim "Bosh was great in this game or that game".

How is this relevant? Any player can look good in a game or 7 games. Bargnani had 36/6/6 game last year in NY where he completely outplayed Amare. What does that prove?

Both by watching Miami games and by looking at the box scores, it's pretty obvious and should not require any arguments that Bosh is not a central point of that team. He's basically playing off Lebron or Wade and he mostly scores on wide open jump shots or dunks. We all know he can take a lot of PFs one on one and he is pretty good at creating shots. But ask any coach or GM or NBA insider who would prefer to create the shots on that team and you will get 100% consensus that it's Lebron or Wade.

Many if not most people thought Bosh will thrive in Miami because he will get a lot of open shots due to the attention given to Lebron and Wade. I don't think anybody thought he will drop from 24ppg to 18ppg and virtually nobody expected his shot percentages to fall. Despite getting all these open shots, he shoots barely better than Bargnani did last season when he got all the attention from the opposing defense. But even beyond offense, the most shocking thing is his drop in rebounds, blocks and steals. That can't be excused regardless of how you look at it.
I actually fully expected his scoring to drop. Rebounds, blocks and steals shouldn't have.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:33 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Lebron and Wade are 2 of the best rebounding wings in the league.
and also with a center who makes Bargnani look like reggie evans.
And all research shows there's little correlation between having multiple good rebounders on a team and how many rebounds each gets. If you pair 2 x10rbg players, they will still get 20 rebounds together. This is especially true on the offensive end, where there is 0 correlation.
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And it isn't a struggle against life itself for Bosh to grab 10 rebounds... can't say the same about Bargs.
that's exactly the problem, we all know Bosh can grab 10 rebounds, the problem is he doesn't. Same for Andrea, a large majority thinks he could easily get 9 rebounds a game if only he tried, the problem is he doesn't ...
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He's already been a star for the Heat. He's played big against the Lakers on many occasions and had a great playoff run last season. If he was a role player Haslem could fill his shoes.... obviously that isn't the case.
So then how come Heat is not dominating the league like many expected? You have 3 superstars (by your count), a bunch of very good role players (battier, miller, haslem) and even the rest of crew is more or less average (chalmers, cole and jones). The Lakers would kill to have that kind of supporting crew around them, and they're still almost as good as the Heat.

Anyway, the role player thing was the argument made by the espn writer IN CB's DEFENSE. He was arguing that he's underachieving BECAUSE he's treated like a role player by Miami. My argument was that of course he will be treated as such. In Toronto he was the main shot creator by default, he's not even close to Lebron or Wade in that aspect of the game.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:38 AM   #66 (permalink)
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I actually fully expected his scoring to drop. Rebounds, blocks and steals shouldn't have.
most people expected his ppg to drop, but not his efficiency. He would clearly get fewer shots, but better quality ones. The strange thing is that he DOES get quality shots, he just doesn't make enough of them. Even last night, when he had an ok game by his recent standards, he missed a top of wide open jumpers.

My personal theory is that Bosh needs to be very involved in the offense to operate at peak efficiency. Right now he may get 5 shots in a row, but then they'll forget about him for 5 minutes. He is treated like a role player by their offense most of the time, and he doesn't know how to handle it. And he's not alone, Lebron and wade suffer too, and that's (in my opinion) why a team that on talent alone should destroy the league, is fairly mundane compared to the expectations.

The drop in rebounds/blocks/steals is probably a result of the Bargnani syndrome, when the shot's not falling, the interest in doing the dirty work wanes along with it ...
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:51 AM   #67 (permalink)
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18/8 + 50FG%

Isn't that bad is it?

I'm no Bosh fanboy by any stretch, but the ripping of this guy is a little over the top around here which I guess is expected. Is he a max player.....no 3rd option should be max players in all likelyhood. Their numbers will never measure up to most max players.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:34 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Bosh has been playing like shit. He's over-thinking everything again. That being said, I think he gets the least amount of respect from officials for a player of his caliber.

He always gets his shoulders by defenders, he always gets fouled, often doesn't get the call.

The problem is that when he doesn't get calls he lets it affect his game. Which is probably why he doesn't get calls.

When he's aggresive, he's a top 5 pf in the game. He proved that earlier in the season when DWade was out.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:38 PM   #69 (permalink)
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How is this relevant?
Because when its all over, thats how your judged. Did you bring it when it was time for it to be brung.

Miami is an all star team. Players are playing different positions and roles.

Calling Chris Bosh a Role Player, in the traditional sense that the term is used, is ridiculous.

Robert Horry at SA was a role player.
Horace Grant was a role player.
Kerr, Paxon....role players.

Bosh isn't a role player.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:42 PM   #70 (permalink)
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SJ is completely right. Calling Bosh a role player is silly.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:47 PM   #71 (permalink)
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SJ is completely right. Calling Bosh a role player is silly.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:11 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Just because there are two better players than you on the other team doesn't make you a role player.

Is Amare stoudamire a role player. Manu Ginobli?

Is Pau Gasol a role player? James Harden?

That's a very simple definition to use for role the term role player. "Third best"
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:26 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Because when its all over, thats how your judged. Did you bring it when it was time for it to be brung.

Miami is an all star team. Players are playing different positions and roles.

Calling Chris Bosh a Role Player, in the traditional sense that the term is used, is ridiculous.

Robert Horry at SA was a role player.
Horace Grant was a role player.
Kerr, Paxon....role players.

Bosh isn't a role player.
I think you misunderstood the article, the writer didn't say Bosh is a role player, certainly not in the vein of the above players. He said that on offense he's being treated like a role player.

Obviously Bosh is a better player than Horry was and he's a multiple all-star. The problem is he's not playing like an all star at either end right now. He still gives you solid numbers and occasionally can take a game over like he used to , but he's also capable of giving you games of 10 and 5 and 12 and 4 with bad shooting percentages and no other contribution. And defensively, while improved over his Toronto days, he's far from being an imposing presence.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:28 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Just because there are two better players than you on the other team doesn't make you a role player.

Is Amare stoudamire a role player. Manu Ginobli?

Is Pau Gasol a role player? James Harden?

That's a very simple definition to use for role the term role player. "Third best"
you're arguing over the definition. We have no way of knowing exactly which definition the writer meant.

Bottom line is he's not playing well. Some think it's because he's treated like a role player in Miami, some think because he's just not that good and his stats were inflated in Toronto and some think he's going through a funk.

Whatever the reason may be, both him and Miami are underachieving.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:36 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Bosh has been playing like shit. He's over-thinking everything again. That being said, I think he gets the least amount of respect from officials for a player of his caliber.

He always gets his shoulders by defenders, he always gets fouled, often doesn't get the call.

The problem is that when he doesn't get calls he lets it affect his game. Which is probably why he doesn't get calls.

When he's aggresive, he's a top 5 pf in the game. He proved that earlier in the season when DWade was out.
I think he has a earned reputation for being soft. Toronto Raptors had the same reputation until this season, and once we started playing harder, everything changed - how many times we've seen the other team's fans complaining the refs lets us get away with murder?

Also, top 5 is about right. He's a legitimate all-star (even though he doesn't play like one right now) and occasionally he can take over games. He's still the same player he was 2 years ago, it's not like he lost a step.

Ultimately, he's not in a great place in Miami. What Bosh needs is a great PG and a good center. He is devastating in P&R and weak defensively, Chris Paul and Bosh would be impossible to stop and having a guy like Howard to back him up will let him spend his energy on offense.

I always believed Miami will struggle (compared to expectations), because the 3 stars have too many overlapping talents, especially offensively. I also thought they'll struggle a bit defensively, but I obviously underappreciated how disrupting the james/wade combo can be. If they had a center like Howard on that team, they would blow away all historical defensive records.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:45 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Just because there are two better players than you on the other team doesn't make you a role player.

Is Amare stoudamire a role player. Manu Ginobli?

Is Pau Gasol a role player? James Harden?

That's a very simple definition to use for role the term role player. "Third best"
We goooollllly.... all this Bosh talk going on when I'm not even involved... who'd a thunk it?

I think that bjjs pretty much hit the nail on the head (above).

We've been through this argument many times before. I think that it's plain as day that when Bosh is given more touches the Heat are a better team. When wade was out the team barely missed a beat because Bosh was avging about 27/7 over that span.

I also think that Lebron is head & shoulders above anyone else in the league right now. He's proven that he can carry a TEAM of true "role players" to the finals and b2b 60-win seasons.

Bosh couldn't do that.

Wade couldn't do that.

Kobe couldn't do that.


I don't care who's dubbed a "true franchise player" and who isn't.... every one of those guys is a star. And if you pair them up with another strong player you're probably going to have one heck of a team.
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Old 03-30-2012, 01:50 PM   #77 (permalink)
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I think he has a earned reputation for being soft. Toronto Raptors had the same reputation until this season, and once we started playing harder, everything changed - how many times we've seen the other team's fans complaining the refs lets us get away with murder?

Also, top 5 is about right. He's a legitimate all-star (even though he doesn't play like one right now) and occasionally he can take over games. He's still the same player he was 2 years ago, it's not like he lost a step.

Ultimately, he's not in a great place in Miami. What Bosh needs is a great PG and a good center. He is devastating in P&R and weak defensively, Chris Paul and Bosh would be impossible to stop and having a guy like Howard to back him up will let him spend his energy on offense.

I always believed Miami will struggle (compared to expectations), because the 3 stars have too many overlapping talents, especially offensively. I also thought they'll struggle a bit defensively, but I obviously underappreciated how disrupting the james/wade combo can be. If they had a center like Howard on that team, they would blow away all historical defensive records.
Do you think that Howard could play P & R defense as well as Bosh does? Would be interesting to see... I agree with you though... I think they would be better defensively.

They would also take about 10 steps backwards OFFENSIVELY since they'd no longer have a reliable jumpshooting big man (Haslem is decent but not at that level) and they'd be adding one of the worst FT shooters in the league to their team. Then add in the fact that D12 would limit Wade's and James' movements in the lane (since he'd camp out down low), probably making them take more outside jumpers than they really want to.

Lebon/Bosh/D12 or Wade/Bosh/D12 would be a much better combination if you wanted to dominate.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:30 PM   #78 (permalink)
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We goooollllly.... all this Bosh talk going on when I'm not even involved... who'd a thunk it?

I think that bjjs pretty much hit the nail on the head (above).

We've been through this argument many times before. I think that it's plain as day that when Bosh is given more touches the Heat are a better team. When wade was out the team barely missed a beat because Bosh was avging about 27/7 over that span.

I also think that Lebron is head & shoulders above anyone else in the league right now. He's proven that he can carry a TEAM of true "role players" to the finals and b2b 60-win seasons.

Bosh couldn't do that.

Wade couldn't do that.

Kobe couldn't do that.


I don't care who's dubbed a "true franchise player" and who isn't.... every one of those guys is a star. And if you pair them up with another strong player you're probably going to have one heck of a team.
IMO Kevin Durant is in the same league as Lebron. How come Lebron's team doesn't have the best record in the NBA when theres two other superstars on the team?
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:34 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Do you think that Howard could play P & R defense as well as Bosh does? Would be interesting to see... I agree with you though... I think they would be better defensively.

They would also take about 10 steps backwards OFFENSIVELY since they'd no longer have a reliable jumpshooting big man (Haslem is decent but not at that level) and they'd be adding one of the worst FT shooters in the league to their team. Then add in the fact that D12 would limit Wade's and James' movements in the lane (since he'd camp out down low), probably making them take more outside jumpers than they really want to.

Lebon/Bosh/D12 or Wade/Bosh/D12 would be a much better combination if you wanted to dominate.
maybe you shoud read my post again ... I wasn't saying they should replace Bosh with howard (although they'd be much improved if they did). My point was that Bosh would be a lot better with Howard and chris paul than with lebron and wade, it's a better complement of skills for him.

as far as P&R defense, Bosh has a quickness advantage (main thing in P&R defense), so he's supposed to be better. Overall defense, it's not even close, not by a mile. Calderon is better than Howard at defending PGs, that doesn't make him comparable with Dwight on offense.
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Old 03-30-2012, 02:35 PM   #80 (permalink)
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heehee... i like that one. Nice!
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