The Bosh blame game
Old 06-18-2010, 11:33 PM   #1 (permalink)
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If, as expected, Chris Bosh departs the Raptors next month, a large part of the blame has to fall on the franchise’s insistence on trying to build around Bosh and Andrea Bargnani.

It has been clear for some time now that, despite their prowess together offensively, the pairing was irreparably flawed at the equally important defensive end of the floor.

A frontcourt of Bargnani and Bosh simply does not prevent enough baskets to be effective. Not by a long shot.

The Raptors are far worse when the duo plays at the same time than when Bosh takes the floor without Bargnani.

Bryan Colangelo should have moved Bargnani and built more wisely around his five-time all-star.

Putting a strong all-around defensive centre (like Brendan Haywood, Joakim Noah or Joel Przybilla) beside Bosh would have gone a long way towards fixing the squad’s defensive shortcomings. Now a similar player will have to be parachuted in to do the same for Bargnani who is expected to be shifted to the power forward slot should Bosh head to a new address.

Statistical analysis is often overused in professional sports, after all, the mantra has always been you can tell far more about a player by watching him in action than you can by combing through and extrapolating numbers to your liking.

But it has become increasingly clear in recent years that stats can be a very valuable scouting tool

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Using stats from basketballvalue.com, we measured the perfomances of Chris Bosh and Andrea Bargnani over the past three seasons both together and apart.

The results weren’t pretty for Bargnani. While both played better at the offensive end together, Bosh was considerably more effective at the defensive end in a lineup without Bargnani than Bargnani was the other way around.

Defensive rating measures points allowed per 100 possessions. Offensive rating is the opposite.

2007-2008 ORTG DRTG

Bosh-Bargnani 115.38 108.26

Bosh-No Bargnani 111.21 100.00

Bargnani-No Bosh 106.75 106.52

2008-2009 ORTG DRTG

Bosh-Bargnani 109.02 113.38

Bosh-No Bargnani 108.45 105.69

Bargnani-No Bosh 101.00 109.75

2009-2010 ORTG DRTG

Bosh-Bargnani 112.63 115.09

Bosh-No Bargnani 111.03 106.52

Bargnani-No Bosh 110.07 117.15

LAST 3 YEARS ORTG DRTG

Bosh-Bargnani 111.90 112.89

Bosh-No Bargnani 110.16 104.96

Bargnani-No Bosh 106.27 111.69
LINK - Toronto Sun
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:48 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Bryan Colangelo should have moved Bargnani and built more wisely around his five-time all-star.

Putting a strong all-around defensive centre (like Brendan Haywood, Joakim Noah or Joel Przybilla) beside Bosh would have gone a long way towards fixing the squad’s defensive shortcomings.

Now a similar player will have to be parachuted in to do the same for Bargnani who is expected to be shifted to the power forward slot should Bosh head to a new address.


Everyone knew that Bargs wasn't a Center + I have always wanted a Defensive centre to come in and shelder the Load on the defensive end. eg Haywood or Marc Gasol. as for a center to come in I would look at either Drew Gooden, David Lee or as mentioned above Brendan Haywood + yes move Andrea back to the 4 were he is a custom to playing.
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:01 AM   #3 (permalink)
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would you do a resigned haywood for Bargnani trade?
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Old 06-19-2010, 12:30 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I'm going to play a little devil's advocate, but first I want to point out an important part of that article that got clipped out:

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Drafting Bargnani No. 1 overall in 2006 was not the wrong call by Colangelo, though he also liked Rudy Gay and wouldn’t he have looked good beside Bosh?

Colangelo did not know the pairing would not work. Bargnani was a true 7-footer with a sturdy base who looked like a potential centre down the line with high offensive potential.

Nobody had Brandon Roy at No. 1, LaMarcus Aldridge would have been a terrible fit next to Bosh, and Tyrus Thomas and Adam Morrison became spectacular busts.

But Colangelo erred in not peddling Bargnani for much-needed wing help, either at the trade deadline in 2008/09 or last summer.

Surely there would have been a taker or two willing to pony up to see what Bargnani could do as a power forward.

By then it was abundantly clear that Bosh-Bargnani was not an effective combination defensively.

Now, with another rebuild in progress, Bargnani’s likely to stay, while Bosh, a far better player, probably will head off in search of a better fit.
1 - BC did try to bring in Jermaine O'neal to provide Bosh with the defensive/rebounding presence he needed. It didn't work but the effort was made.

2 - Bargnani's value was probably shit at the 2009 trade deadline. Bargs didn't start playing well until January of 2009. I can't recall one decent rumour surrounding a Bargs trade. I think Dallas tried to dump an INJURED Josh Howard. Anything else?

It's a tough situation because you don't want to dump Bargs for nothing, yet at the same time he didn't serve as the proper complement to Bosh in the front-court. It's unfortunate. They looked good together at some points this season, like when they were creating match-up nightmares for LA and Cleveland.
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:43 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The problem with Bargs is that he is more of a C than a PF so I feel he must be utilized as such.

I believe that Bargs can be an effective C in the league while never a prototypical one.
I think he can raise his scoring to Bosh levels, become a better blocker and increase his rebounds to 8 RPG.I think the last 2 games of the year showed some flashes of what an Amir and Bargs combo could be.

Again while the Raptors won't be looking for a championship they will be far from dismal.
What would a team with Nash,Hill,Weems,Bargs & Amir look like?
A good backcourt can make the difference a point guard that can penetrate, feed and pass.

I guess we will find out next year.
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:47 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I have to agree with the op's post. A front court of Bosh and Bargs will never be an adequate defensive one. Neither player seems too interested in stepping in defensively and risking fouls that might take them out of the game. They are all about offence. If they co-exist one of them has to come off the bench or evey other player in the starting lineup needs to be among the league's best defensive players.
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:58 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ArmChairGM View Post
I'm going to play a little devil's advocate, but first I want to point out an important part of that article that got clipped out:



1 - BC did try to bring in Jermaine O'neal to provide Bosh with the defensive/rebounding presence he needed. It didn't work but the effort was made.

2 - Bargnani's value was probably shit at the 2009 trade deadline. Bargs didn't start playing well until January of 2009. I can't recall one decent rumour surrounding a Bargs trade. I think Dallas tried to dump an INJURED Josh Howard. Anything else?

It's a tough situation because you don't want to dump Bargs for nothing, yet at the same time he didn't serve as the proper complement to Bosh in the front-court. It's unfortunate. They looked good together at some points this season, like when they were creating match-up nightmares for LA and Cleveland.
1. -It was a pretty feeble effort that still left Bargnani in the mix needing to be squeezed into the mix somehow, and the perimeter players that filled out the team were abysmal. The JO deal was far more about JO's contract than making an effort to provide an anchor at the defensive end.

2 - BC has consistently said that Bargnani's value around the league is high. And if his value in fact meant that little would come back in return, then how exactly would that be a problem? If the little that came back would not require ego-stroking, major minutes. and being spared from accountability, then it would seem that the there would be a net gain.

It wasn't that tough a situation, except for the fans, who had to sit through failure at the hands of the golden boy.

Wolstat also says this -

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Now, with another rebuild in progress, Bargnani’s likely to stay, while Bosh, a far better player, probably will head off in search of a better fit.

It’s not Bargnani’s fault, but he’ll feel the wrath of the fans as a result.

Colangelo will have to pull a few rabbits out of his hat to avoid a similar fate.
Pretty ominous.

I have to say that I held out hope for Bargnani for the longest time. But if I had a reputation as a gm on the line, with all the proper instincts in play, then I'm not sure it's such a tough situation. This team has been held hostage while it waits for Andrea to simply play with a little energy. When he does he's easily seen as a keeper. But as Grannyfro pointed out, even as a good man defender, he fails to make the grade, because he barely ever breaks into a sweat. Sam Mitchell saw the problem, and he went away - but the problem did not. And now they are looking to build a team around a guy whose lack of effort is much more pronounced than any sustained effort. That hardly makes for good chemistry. And on top of everything else, it handcuffs a coach that already shows some inability to take strong actions for the good of the whole.
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:01 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I agree Bargs should be dealt if it keeps Bosh here. I would do Bargs for Ellis or Harris. GSW love Bargnani apparently and Bargs would look great at PF next to Lopez. Then you can trade Hedo/Jose + expirings for a defensive Center and bench help (seperate trades).
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:04 AM   #9 (permalink)
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trade Bargs, then sign Shaq and AI
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:24 AM   #10 (permalink)
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If the Raptors are not going to be a top ten team in salary I don't think they can add the Pieces to Bosh to be more than a just make the Playoffs team and hope for a major Cinderella run. If your looking for a place to spread the blame I would start with the budget as the Elite teams are spending much more and as far as Bosh thinking he has to go elsewhere to be on an elite team he must see that fact as well.
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:39 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hounsy View Post
If the Raptors are not going to be a top ten team in salary I don't think they can add the Pieces to Bosh to be more than a just make the Playoffs team and hope for a major Cinderella run. If your looking for a place to spread the blame I would start with the budget as the Elite teams are spending much more and as far as Bosh thinking he has to go elsewhere to be on an elite team he must see that fact as well.
Yeah, he pointed that out in his exiting interview after the season. But really, who doesn't see that at this point?
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Old 06-19-2010, 11:28 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Yeah, he pointed that out in his exiting interview after the season. But really, who doesn't see that at this point?
Not sure, it just seems some people think the Raps can/could have shuffled the existing deck chairs around and make/made Bosh want to come back and I just don't see it was happening without the salary. So for that reason I don't blame players, coaches, Bosh, or even the GM. What I don't know enough about as an admitted casual fan is if MLSE is justified in not having the money to pony up.
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Not sure, it just seems some people think the Raps can/could have shuffled the existing deck chairs around and make/made Bosh want to come back and I just don't see it was happening without the salary. So for that reason I don't blame players, coaches, Bosh, or even the GM. What I don't know enough about as an admitted casual fan is if MLSE is justified in not having the money to pony up.
That's what it comes down to ultimately. Have we been sold on a team that is never going to be able to deliver? They say they are ready to pony up now, but it's conveniently a little late in the game to be saying that. Without being able to make the financial commitment, it is going to be hard to be anything more than a team where young players develop.

But who knows - things might turn unexpectedly yet. I can remember when Kobe was cleaning out his locker, and demanding a trade due to the Lakers not being willing to do what was necessary. They got a nice little bit of help from Jerry West. But there are a lot of teams that could be capable of doing something similar right now. I don't expect anything, but who knows?
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:15 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm not sure if I'm being naive but I fail to see the evidence that makes Bosh's departure so appear so inevitable. I mean really what is there? Anonymous sources saying that Bosh won't even speak with the team about staying? Bosh himself has said Toronto is still in consideration. He could be lying, but I'd have to consider words from the horse's mouth a little more reliable than unnamed sources who's affiliation to any of the involved parties is dubious.

But to get back on topic, if Bosh stays and we have the chance to get Ellis for Bargs I can't imagine how BC can rationalize not doing it. That trade would seriously be highway robbery.
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:49 PM   #15 (permalink)
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1. -It was a pretty feeble effort that still left Bargnani in the mix needing to be squeezed into the mix somehow, and the perimeter players that filled out the team were abysmal. The JO deal was far more about JO's contract than making an effort to provide an anchor at the defensive end.
Feeble? I'm sure you would have netted something awesome. JO was obviously a gamble, and I was more intrigued by a TJ/Hamilton backourt (which would have enabled Rasho to play with Bosh), but I wouldn't call the effort feeble. JO was only a gamble due to his injuries. He was an all-star who had put up 10+ boards and 2+ blks per game in the past. And of course Bargs was still in the mix, trading him at that point (summer/fall of 2008) wasn't going to yield anywhere near his potential value.

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2 - BC has consistently said that Bargnani's value around the league is high. And if his value in fact meant that little would come back in return, then how exactly would that be a problem? If the little that came back would not require ego-stroking, major minutes. and being spared from accountability, then it would seem that the there would be a net gain.
I specifically made reference to the trade deadline in 2009. Prior to that, Bargs had 6 good weeks of play preceeded by 18 months of shit. I find it hard to believe his value was "high" prior to the 2009 deadline. I could be wrong. Do you have an article or at least a youtube clip from 2009 in which he says anything like that? I don't remeber him saying anything like that until last summer, when the contract extension was being finalized and Bargs had put together several consecutive months of 17+ ppg scoring. That was well after the deadline. Perhaps BC considers an injured Josh Howard "high" value? Maybe that explains it. But we don't even know if that rumour was true.

[/quote] It wasn't that tough a situation, except for the fans, who had to sit through failure at the hands of the golden boy. [quote]



If you give away an asset for next to nothing, and then said asset produces for another team, that sucks. In my opinion, that scenario is a tough situation. According to what you've been implying, Bargnani should have been traded prior to the 2009 trade deadline. I seriously doubt a Bargnani trade would have netted what it could this year. And I seriously doubt it would have netted a healthy impact player that made the Raps a contendor quick enough to convince Bosh to stay. At least now a potential trading partner has seen a significant stretch of games with Bargnani producing above 17+ ppg.

In my opinion, it's far more understandable for people to be upset about him [Bargnani] not being traded this year. His value was higher this season and it might have been worth shopping him.

Quote:
Wolstat also says this -



Pretty ominous.

I have to say that I held out hope for Bargnani for the longest time. But if I had a reputation as a gm on the line, with all the proper instincts in play, then I'm not sure it's such a tough situation. This team has been held hostage while it waits for Andrea to simply play with a little energy. When he does he's easily seen as a keeper. But as Grannyfro pointed out, even as a good man defender, he fails to make the grade, because he barely ever breaks into a sweat. Sam Mitchell saw the problem, and he went away - but the problem did not. And now they are looking to build a team around a guy whose lack of effort is much more pronounced than any sustained effort. That hardly makes for good chemistry. And on top of everything else, it handcuffs a coach that already shows some inability to take strong actions for the good of the whole.
If BC can get something nice for Bargnani, then I think he should consider trading him. I don't think he should be untouchable. Just the principle of making players untouchable is annoying to me, unless they are top 10 players who are still in their prime.

It's interesting that you quote Grannyfro, because just this week Granny admitted that he didn't want to trade Andrea right away. Granny recognizes the dilemma posed by trading a guy when it appears as though you won't get FULL value. Yes, Andrea's value might be "high" now, according to BC, but that might be in terms of players in the $10 mill range (like a Josh Howard type). That doesn't mean trading him right now will get FULL value. The thing is, if the team does rebuild, they might be better off inflating his stats for 2 years and then trading him when he's a 20/7 player. So don't hold your breath for a Bargnani trade. Again, given the context of a possible rebuild, moving him only seems obvious if you hate the guy.

Now, having said that, if BC was able to trade Bargs for a solid wing player next week (a reasonably healthy one) and it was enough to convince Bosh to stay, then I'd hope he would make that move. But Bosh appears to have made up his mind, so that's probably out of the equation by now.

Last edited by Bill Haverchuck; 06-19-2010 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 06-19-2010, 05:01 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I don't think BC has ever said that Bargs is untouchable ... Bargs is one of the few assets we have that many teams will try to get him with for nothing.

BC will certainly consider Bargs being traded if the price was right.
The situation could be very different if Bosh made it clear he wanted to stay.
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Old 06-19-2010, 05:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I don't think BC has ever said that Bargs is untouchable ... Bargs is one of the few assets we have that many teams will try to get him with for nothing.

BC will certainly consider Bargs being traded if the price was right.
The situation could be very different if Bosh made it clear he wanted to stay.
Yeah and ive read that Bosh + Bargs cant play together, everyone knew that already because Bargnani is a PF not really a Center, so if Bosh does stay then I would look to trade Andrea for a Pure Center like, Haywood or Marc Gasol, someome who can get after it on the Glass
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Old 06-19-2010, 05:11 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The feebleness that I was referring to had more to do with all the crap players that they filled the team out with once they went up against the cap. I was pretty happy about JO. But looking at it afterwards, it seemed pretty clear to me that BC was looking at what he could do with the capspace or trading the big expiring deal. I don't think he was looking at filling out his blueprint.

And that is what I question more than Bargnani or his value. The blueprint. What does he see as the finished product? Bargnani stands to suffer as much from a lack of proper team building as Bosh. BC has always stuck to his guns and proclaimed Bargnani as a player that teams have a great deal of interest in. Even after his horrible second season. I don't know if I buy it, but it does all go towards me seeing him trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole for the last few years.
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
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All we can hope for is AB averages 25ppg & 8rpg on close to .500 from the feild & .400 from 3 and all will be good!
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Old 06-19-2010, 10:28 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Actually I would be happy with any kind of numbers as long as the energy is there. Without bringing energy to the games the numbers don't mean much. Not unless he can be a guy like Odom that comes off the bench and has it some nights and other nights sits a little more. A Bargnani without energy is a team killer. And maybe, like Odom, he can't just summon up energy out of nowhere, but needs to try to work on the energy that any particular game produces for him. That can work for a bench player on a deep team. But not for a starter on a team that isn't so deep.
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