Best prospect DD, Val or ED? - Page 4

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View Poll Results: Who is the best prospect?
Demar Derozan 22 45.83%
Ed Davis 7 14.58%
Jonas Valanciunas 19 39.58%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-29-2011, 11:39 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ValanciunasFanboy View Post
I meant to post that to the poster who keeps replying me with smilies.

As for what you say, I agree. Again - my point is simple. I say that you can't judge talent by scored points. Look up the page and read the initial post.
Definitely. I think DD's passing ability is underrated, and he has potential in that area as well. I've seen in many games he's made excellent passes for easy looks to teammates under the basket. He has an ability to get to the free throw line which is critical for easy baskets. He has good work ethic.
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:40 AM   #62 (permalink)
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The post was about Beasley...
Edit: ahh, i see why it was confusing.
No biggie. I see want you meant.
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:42 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Bosh isn't stupid and he's an NBA star. He's no superstar but he's a star in the NBA. Therefor i don't get what you're trying to say. Then again, i've heard worse on this board when it comes to Bosh.

Bosh is a career 20/10/1 player.

6 time NBA All-Star
All-NBA Second Team
NBA All-Rookie First Team

And was Miami's second best player in the finals last year, better than Lebron. Simply, i disagree that he's not an NBA star.
Every NBA player is a star. The label's use has been used far too regularly, but that's okay. Nothing to get so defensive about.

Bosh is a very good player, but there are probably at least 25 players GM's would rather have than him. This doesn't take away from him, and how he got into a discussion of Beasley and DD is beyond reasonable so fuggettabowdit.
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:44 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by fk24 View Post
Definitely. I think DD's passing ability is underrated, and he has potential in that area as well. I've seen in many games he's made excellent passes for easy looks to teammates under the basket. He has an ability to get to the free throw line which is critical for easy baskets. He has good work ethic.
I've seen a lot of players make incredible passes...... he doesn't do it consistently or regularly. Until he gets better handles, I don't see his passing potential increasing much.
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:45 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Mehhh, Davis needs a jumper and he'll be a 15-20ppg/10+rpg/1.5-2Blks IMO. As a starter this season he already averaged 11ppg/10rpg/1Blk. And he's undersized and didn't play a full rookie season. I will say one thing. Talking about this stuff gets me excited b/c i really like the prospect of all 3 of them on the Raptors + a high 2012 draft pick. We're looking to be in a good position in a couple years imo if our capspace is spent properly?
Not sure I agree with you. For one, he's not undersized, he just needs more weight. By undersized, nbaers usually mean not tall enough. Second, ed's offensive game is very raw. He gets all his points on hustle and energy. It's very difficult to score 15+ ppg with that alone. That's why you see so many pf/c scoring around 10ppg.

Beyond that, I won't argue. Davis can definitely be an all star and an elite defensive player. In fact, I think he can be better than Bosh was, even though he'll never be as good offensively. The only reason I pick jv is because a good center is rare and more valuable than a good pf to a team.

My only concern is that both of them are going to take years to become good offensive weapons, and pairing them might be a challenge during the next few years, unless we get a high scoring SF to pair demar. Then we could emulate OKC, who get little scoring from their big guys.
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:46 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Every NBA player is a star. The label's use has been used far too regularly, but that's okay. Nothing to get so defensive about.

Bosh is a very good player, but there are probably at least 25 players GM's would rather have than him. This doesn't take away from him, and how he got into a discussion of Beasley and DD is beyond reasonable so fuggettabowdit.
At his poistion? Fact is if a GM is looking for a PF Bosh would be on their list as one of their top choices. This league is dominated these days by 1-2-3's IMO. So you're probably right about 25 players being ahead of him, it might even be 30, but 15-20 of them would be guards/SF's.
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:50 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Not sure I agree with you. For one, he's not undersized, he just needs more weight. By undersized, nbaers usually mean not tall enough. Second, ed's offensive game is very raw. He gets all his points on hustle and energy. It's very difficult to score 15+ ppg with that alone. That's why you see so many pf/c scoring around 10ppg.

Beyond that, I won't argue. Davis can definitely be an all star and an elite defensive player. In fact, I think he can be better than Bosh was, even though he'll never be as good offensively. The only reason I pick jv is because a good center is rare and more valuable than a good pf to a team.

My only concern is that both of them are going to take years to become good offensive weapons, and pairing them might be a challenge during the next few years, unless we get a high scoring SF to pair demar. Then we could emulate OKC, who get little scoring from their big guys.

Yeah, i meant too small as in weight. I will agree with you about a good Center is rare and difficult to get and keep. There are less good Centers in the NBA than any other position. But that being said i would say he's a better prospect just because it's difficult to get a good player at the position he plays. But like i said earlier, the fact that there is debate about these three players bodes well for us and it gets me excited. I hope for one more high pick in 2012 and then go from there.
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Old 08-29-2011, 11:52 AM   #68 (permalink)
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At his poistion? Fact is if a GM is looking for a PF Bosh would be on their list as one of their top choices. This league is dominated these days by 1-2-3's IMO. So you're probably right about 25 players being ahead of him, it might even be 30, but 15-20 of them would be guards/SF's.
At his position he'd be top ten for sure, probably top 7. Dirk, Gasol, Aldridge, Griffin, Amare.... off the top of my head.... I say Aldridge due to age but I will concede it's a tossup in talent to keep the argument friendly.

Regardless, he's not top 2 at his position and you're right that there would be many guards ahead of him and C's.
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Old 08-29-2011, 12:01 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Centre is the posiition that is most likely to bust.
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Old 08-29-2011, 12:07 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Centre is the posiition that is most likely to bust.
you sure it isn't shooting guard? So many athletic guards come out and disappoint. There aren't as many blue chip C options.... just a lot of big guys with middling talent drafted out of a prominent need for size.
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Old 08-29-2011, 02:38 PM   #71 (permalink)
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you sure it isn't shooting guard? So many athletic guards come out and disappoint. There aren't as many blue chip C options.... just a lot of big guys with middling talent drafted out of a prominent need for size.
No he's right, C's are more injury prone and take much longer to develop. Proof-look at how many quality centers there are compared to shooting guards.
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Old 08-29-2011, 02:45 PM   #72 (permalink)
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No he's right, C's are more injury prone and take much longer to develop. Proof-look at how many quality centers there are compared to shooting guards.
How many C's are drafted each year compared to SG's. You didn't provide proof that was indisputable. Further, most C's that are busts not due to injury still spend more time in the league just as bigs with size. Bench SG's are a dime a dozen, while 7 footers aren't so prevalent even before the NBA stage. I would agree C's are more injury prone, but more projected stud SG's get drafted than projected stud C's.

Proof: 7 players listed at C or C/PF while 21 listed at SG or SG+

Last edited by carp; 08-29-2011 at 02:51 PM.
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:20 PM   #73 (permalink)
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derozan, hands down
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Old 08-29-2011, 03:56 PM   #74 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by carp View Post
How many C's are drafted each year compared to SG's. You didn't provide proof that was indisputable. Further, most C's that are busts not due to injury still spend more time in the league just as bigs with size. Bench SG's are a dime a dozen, while 7 footers aren't so prevalent even before the NBA stage. I would agree C's are more injury prone, but more projected stud SG's get drafted than projected stud C's.

Proof:

7 players listed at C or C/PF while 21 listed at SG or SG+

Just because there are less centers doesn't mean they are quality centers. Centers get drafted so much less than shooting guards for precisely that reason, they will probably be busts. You have a safer option drafting a guard or a forward than a center.

Darko, Kwame Brown, Greg Oden, Emeka are just some centers that were supposed to be superstars, and weren't. Guess what there's only one, that's right one center (I mean true center) that can be even consider in the top 25 players in the nba and thats dwight, compare that to shooting guards. Sure more get drafted and and then would have more chance to be good but come on, only one center is an actual star. Go look at every draft since 2000 the only other star center next to dwight that has been in the league has been Yao, but if you go back and actually look at draft reports and all that, there were other centers that were expected to be stars.
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:00 PM   #75 (permalink)
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How many C's are drafted each year compared to SG's. You didn't provide proof that was indisputable. Further, most C's that are busts not due to injury still spend more time in the league just as bigs with size. Bench SG's are a dime a dozen, while 7 footers aren't so prevalent even before the NBA stage. I would agree C's are more injury prone, but more projected stud SG's get drafted than projected stud C's.

Proof:

7 players listed at C or C/PF while 21 listed at SG or SG+
yeah, the amount of Centers doesn't diminish the bust factor or %.
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:03 PM   #76 (permalink)
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yeah, the amount of Centers doesn't diminish the bust factor or %.
actually it does.... if you're talking about how many C's are actually in the league versus SG's.
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:05 PM   #77 (permalink)
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actually it does.... if you're talking about how many C's are actually in the league versus SG's.
Percentage wise, more Centers are busts vs SG's.
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:08 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Just because there are less centers doesn't mean they are quality centers. Centers get drafted so much less than shooting guards for precisely that reason, they will probably be busts. You have a safer option drafting a guard or a forward than a center.

Darko, Kwame Brown, Greg Oden, Emeka are just some centers that were supposed to be superstars, and weren't. Guess what there's only one, that's right one center (I mean true center) that can be even consider in the top 25 players in the nba and thats dwight, compare that to shooting guards. Sure more get drafted and and then would have more chance to be good but come on, only one center is an actual star. Go look at every draft since 2000 the only other star center next to dwight that has been in the league has been Yao, but if you go back and actually look at draft reports and all that, there were other centers that were expected to be stars.

As for only one star C in the league, that's just not true. There are actually a couple guys that could be taken top 25.... Bogut? Horford? Noah? Gasol? They may not be C only, but could definitely merit consideration.

You're talking simple numbers, but not acknowledging percentages.
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Old 08-29-2011, 05:06 PM   #79 (permalink)
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As for only one star C in the league, that's just not true. There are actually a couple guys that could be taken top 25.... Bogut? Horford? Noah? Gasol? They may not be C only, but could definitely merit consideration.

You're talking simple numbers, but not acknowledging percentages.

I actually don't consider any of those players stars, they are all very good players but not stars. Horford, a PF was only named an allstar because of how weak the east was in star power this year. (I know Horford plays C but thats only because of Smith) The rest are actual centers and while they are all very good, none are someone that you can even remotely begin to build a franchise around.

As for percentages, you've given none, just suggested that more SG are busts. If you actually want to work out percentages you would calculate how many SGs are bust compared to the SGs drafted and how many Cs are bust compared to the Cs drafted, but who the hell is going to do that. But just from recent memory, I would think that the Cs would have a higher percentage.
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Old 08-29-2011, 05:55 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I actually don't consider any of those players stars, they are all very good players but not stars. Horford, a PF was only named an allstar because of how weak the east was in star power this year. (I know Horford plays C but thats only because of Smith) The rest are actual centers and while they are all very good, none are someone that you can even remotely begin to build a franchise around.

As for percentages, you've given none, just suggested that more SG are busts. If you actually want to work out percentages you would calculate how many SGs are bust compared to the SGs drafted and how many Cs are bust compared to the Cs drafted, but who the hell is going to do that. But just from recent memory, I would think that the Cs would have a higher percentage.
I'm aware I didn't give percentages, as you're right, would be too laborious. Center prospects tend to stick out in one's memory because there are fewer to remember. I think the concept of bust is very different as well. I wouldn't consider someone like Marcus Camby a bust but he was a highly touted C coming in.
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