The Best Player On The Toronto Raptors This Year Will Be..... - Page 4
Old 11-29-2011, 02:28 PM   #61 (permalink)
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There is clearly room for SOME weakness from strong offensive players on the extremely good defensive teams you point to. That doesn't mean they are bad defenders. It is a reflection of how good their team is defensively. If the Heat and Bulls are making it hard for any opposing teams to score 90 points, then having the overall defense drop some with any particular player on the court isn't much of an issue.

When your team is the worst in the league defensively, over two consecutive years, and you routinely give up more than 110, it is hard to say that a player is good defensively when his team shows some ability to improve on that end when he is sitting down.

Andrea has to do more than improve his offensive impact if a coach that preaches defensive accountability is going to have any chance of succeeding. If the team improves dramatically enough on defense that his own differential becomes as inconsequential as Rose's or Noah's, then I would not even consider using the stat in an individual sense, but would commend him for being a part of the improvement. I honestly don't see where a defense gets that much better without him improving a great deal in that respect. No team is going to hold teams under 80 or 90 when Ben Wallace lights you up for 20 plus.

So you retract your earlier statement that Bargs must not hurt the defence and instead of decided that if the team plays better defence it is ok to an extent, if they are not as good with Bargs on the court.

This is wonderful news and I agree
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:31 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Its a very good post, but you are comparing's the NBA best defensive teams. The whole Chicago team has a commitment to defense, the is no lapse with bench players and starters. However, when you put the Raps who had the worst defensive stats in NBA history in the same sentence with the best defensive teams, can you imagine the impact of Bargnani to those stats. A shit defensive player on the worst defensive team in NBA history. If the Bulls defense gets gets 4 points per 100 possessions worse when Noah plays, take out Noah and insert Bargnani. Those 4 points will turn into double digits.
Nothing to back this up.

Perhaps players are good at D because of the system, we have no way of knowing how terrible Noah's stats would be if he was in Toronto. We can guess they would be terrible, does that make Noah a bad basketball player. Or a sub par Defensive player on a terrible defensive team.

In closing it appears to me that the Toronto Raptors have failed to put a defensive team around Bargnani.

The year of Bargs is upon us.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:45 PM   #63 (permalink)
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There is clearly room for SOME weakness from strong offensive players on the extremely good defensive teams you point to. That doesn't mean they are bad defenders. It is a reflection of how good their team is defensively. If the Heat and Bulls are making it hard for any opposing teams to score 90 points, then having the overall defense drop some with any particular player on the court isn't much of an issue.

When your team is the worst in the league defensively, over two consecutive years, and you routinely give up more than 110, it is hard to say that a player is good defensively when his team shows some ability to improve on that end when he is sitting down.

Andrea has to do more than improve his offensive impact if a coach that preaches defensive accountability is going to have any chance of succeeding. If the team improves dramatically enough on defense that his own differential becomes as inconsequential as Rose's or Noah's, then I would not even consider using the stat in an individual sense, but would commend him for being a part of the improvement. I honestly don't see where a defense gets that much better without him improving a great deal in that respect. No team is going to hold teams under 80 or 90 when Ben Wallace lights you up for 20 plus.
My point was that Bargs' defensive impact relative to his teammates lines up with some other top players, and that it is not a good way to judge whether he has improved defensively this season.

The short answer is the team as a whole has to improve defensively, regardless of Bargs' relative defensive impact to the rest of the team. I agree that Bargnani needs to improve a great deal defensively, and have some hope he might under a vastly different system that Casey could implement. I was only pointing out that, based on many other players around the league, he does not need to meet the criteria you laid out to be a positive impact player.

Oh, and OKC is only league average defensively. I could grab some stats from players on other average to below average teams defensively, but most of them are awful teams you don't want to compare to. Houston (47-35) has Martin, who makes his team 2 points worse defensively when he plays, and they are 19th in DRTG as a team. And yes, Martin is an offensive player, so let's use Battier instead - he also makes his team 2 points worse when he steps on the floor. The Knicks are the only other winning team below average defensively (and isn't that a telling stat?), and an example there could be Stoudemire - without him that team might not win a game, and yet he makes the team 5 points worse defensively every time he steps on the floor.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:49 PM   #64 (permalink)
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So you retract your earlier statement that Bargs must not hurt the defence and instead of decided that if the team plays better defence it is ok to an extent, if they are not as good with Bargs on the court.

This is wonderful news and I agree
I'm not sure what this means, or what craziness you are reading into my post. I'll repeat myself. If the team improves that dramatically on defense, then regardless of what any kind of differential says, he will have been a part of that improvement. I haven't seen any kind of gimmickry that allows for a player to suck defensively for 40 minutes and yet have the team be an elite team defensively.

Durant had a very good defensive squad around him, but until he improved in that respect, and committed to playing well defensively, they didn't get much in the way of results. Once he made the turnaround, the effect of strong defenders around him was magnified.

The question is - has it been about Bargnani's commitment to defense? I don't think so. And if it is about his commitment, than I really have a problem with his character. I would suggest it goes well beyond his character, or the coaching, or the makeup of the team. I would think it is possible for strong defenders to surround Bargnani and show an overall improvement, but if he remains a weak link, it would still severely limit the overall results, and make it very hard for a coach to go on preaching defensive accountability. The day that Andrea does not stand out like a sore thumb, is the day that he at least shows some improvement on the defensive end. Juxtapose that to the players that Dan mentioned - none of which stand out as defenders that get abused so badly that they can be pointed to as a reason for losing.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:52 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Durant had a very good defensive squad around him, but until he improved in that respect, and committed to playing well defensively, they didn't get much in the way of results. Once he made the turnaround, the effect of strong defenders around him was magnified.
...

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Oh, and OKC is only league average defensively.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:03 PM   #66 (permalink)
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The question is - has it been about Bargnani's commitment to defense? I don't think so. And if it is about his commitment, than I really have a problem with his character. I would suggest it goes well beyond his character, or the coaching, or the makeup of the team. I would think it is possible for strong defenders to surround Bargnani and show an overall improvement, but if he remains a weak link, it would still severely limit the overall results, and make it very hard for a coach to go on preaching defensive accountability. The day that Andrea does not stand out like a sore thumb, is the day that he at least shows some improvement on the defensive end. Juxtapose that to the players that Dan mentioned - none of which stand out as defenders that get abused so badly that they can be pointed to as a reason for losing.
This has been proven untrue.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:07 PM   #67 (permalink)
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My point was that Bargs' defensive impact relative to his teammates lines up with some other top players, and that it is not a good way to judge whether he has improved defensively this season.

The short answer is the team as a whole has to improve defensively, regardless of Bargs' relative defensive impact to the rest of the team. I agree that Bargnani needs to improve a great deal defensively, and have some hope he might under a vastly different system that Casey could implement. I was only pointing out that, based on many other players around the league, he does not need to meet the criteria you laid out to be a positive impact player.

Oh, and OKC is only league average defensively. I could grab some stats from players on other average to below average teams defensively, but most of them are awful teams you don't want to compare to. Houston (47-35) has Martin, who makes his team 2 points worse defensively when he plays, and they are 19th in DRTG as a team. And yes, Martin is an offensive player, so let's use Battier instead - he also makes his team 2 points worse when he steps on the floor. The Knicks are the only other winning team below average defensively (and isn't that a telling stat?), and an example there could be Stoudemire - without him that team might not win a game, and yet he makes the team 5 points worse defensively every time he steps on the floor.
We are somewhat in agreement then. I used the stat as a means of illustrating that it is not just about the failure to surround Andrea with good defenders. The team managed to improve defensively when he did not play.

Now looking at a team like the Knicks - I find the stat to be a bit of an indictment of Stoudemire, but also a reflection of how they choose to play. If Andrea can have the kind of offensive impact of a Stoudemire, and have a similar system, then there will be some modicum of success. But there will still be a ceiling that will not be broken, as is the case in NY. They are going to need Chris Paul, and pretty much nothing less to be able to move up and contend for real. Toronto is nowhere near that sort of predicament, and they are right in trying to build a foundation of strong team defense under Casey rather than eschewing the Moustache's gimmicks that have never been able to make the most of an awful lot of talent. Now the question becomes what kind of role does a player like Andrea play in such a plan. Casey has suggested that Andrea is not that bad defensively, and maybe he wasn't just blowing smoke. I will look to see if there is accountability, if minutes are cut or not, and whether the results bear out something else entirely.

OKC definitely was average last season. Not just statistically, but to the naked eye. Durant needs to lead in that respect again, as he did the season previous, where they made great strides. Last season they turned the switch on and off, and that didn't give them enough to fall back on in the playoffs, and they got burnt. They hit a ceiling of their own. And it will take more than Kendrick Perkins to change that. They are going to have to consider defense much more differently, like Dallas finally did, if they want to get where Dallas is.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:09 PM   #68 (permalink)
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This has been proven untrue.
I'd be interested in seeing how. Let's consider OKC some more. The coach there very much preaches defensive commitment and accountability. After a season where they improved a great deal, last season they played very poorly on defense in what seemed like every other game. It made the coach look very ineffective, and ultimately left the team plateauing. If the same thing happens this season, they are going to have to choose between his way of doing things, or look for a coach that will allow the backsliding on defense. And is allowing the backsliding a good idea with a young team? Honestly and deep down in your heart? You have to think not. Another option would be to look for a vet to support the coaches message. That was the idea with Perkins. Unfortunately, I'm not sure Perkins is the best fit with that team overall, or the kind of vet that polices the young guys all that well, having relied on vets above him for so long himself.

Last edited by LX; 11-29-2011 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:13 PM   #69 (permalink)
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My point was that Bargs' defensive impact relative to his teammates lines up with some other top players, and that it is not a good way to judge whether he has improved defensively this season.

The short answer is the team as a whole has to improve defensively, regardless of Bargs' relative defensive impact to the rest of the team. I agree that Bargnani needs to improve a great deal defensively, and have some hope he might under a vastly different system that Casey could implement. I was only pointing out that, based on many other players around the league, he does not need to meet the criteria you laid out to be a positive impact player.

Oh, and OKC is only league average defensively. I could grab some stats from players on other average to below average teams defensively, but most of them are awful teams you don't want to compare to. Houston (47-35) has Martin, who makes his team 2 points worse defensively when he plays, and they are 19th in DRTG as a team. And yes, Martin is an offensive player, so let's use Battier instead - he also makes his team 2 points worse when he steps on the floor. The Knicks are the only other winning team below average defensively (and isn't that a telling stat?), and an example there could be Stoudemire - without him that team might not win a game, and yet he makes the team 5 points worse defensively every time he steps on the floor.
extremely interesting stats
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:14 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I'd be interested in seeing how.
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I would think it is possible for strong defenders to surround Bargnani and show an overall improvement, but if he remains a weak link, it would still severely limit the overall results
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The Celtics' defense gets 2 points per 100 possessions worse when Ray Allen plays. The Bulls' defense gets 8 points worse with Rose on the court. Heck, it gets 4 points worse when Noah plays. The Lakers' defense gets worse by 4 points when Kobe steps on the floor. The Heat's defense gets a point worse with Wade on the floor. The Thunder's defense gets 4 points worse when Durant plays.
Since Kobe, Rose, Noah Wade and Durant are by the use of you own stat earlier, sub par defenders as their respective teams are not as good or better defensively when they are on the floor.

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I'll be looking for the team's overall defense to be as good or better when he is on the floor as opposed to when he is off the floor
I wouldn't say any of the teams the play for have in your words "severely limited overall results".

Now that being said had you just said "Bargs sucks on D, I know because I watch the games" you may have had something.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:16 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I saw a recent photo of Bargnani, he is fat and soft.
you mean this photo?
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:16 PM   #72 (permalink)
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BICIPITI SUPER!!!!!!!

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Old 11-29-2011, 03:22 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Since Kobe, Rose, Noah Wade and Durant are by the use of you own stat earlier, sub par defenders as their respective teams are not as good or better defensively when they are on the floor.



I wouldn't say any of the teams the play for have in your words "severely limited overall results".

Now that being said had you just said "Bargs sucks on D, I know because I watch the games" you may have had something.
I guess you've missed my points entirely. You are getting obsessive about a stat. I used the stat to backup my own eyes, and do away with the excuses of it being other weak defensive players being to blame for his problems. That is not the case with the guys you mentioned. They should obviously be taken in an entirely different context. If you want to insist that any of those guys is a weak defender be my guest. I disagree entirely, as I would regarding Bargnani if the Raptors suddenly held teams to under 90 points - something which I've said twice now already.

Also, considering that the roster isn't likely to improve all that much, I think the same stat would still be something to look at if Casey is supposed to be taken at his word that Bargnani is not a bad defender. The context will be the same, but with the expectations of accountability, and the idea that they are building upon defensive principles with a young group.

Last edited by LX; 11-29-2011 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:25 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I guess you've missed my points entirely. You are getting obsessive about a stat. I used the stat to backup my own eyes, and do away with the excuses of it being other weak defensive players being to blame for his problems. That is not the case with the guys you mentioned. They should obviously be taken in an entirely different context. If you want to insist that any of those guys is a weak defender be my guest. I disagree entirely, as I would regarding Bargnani if the Raptors suddenly held teams to under 90 points - something which I've said twice now already.
AWESOME!!!!!!

The year of Bargs is upon us.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:28 PM   #75 (permalink)
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deja vu all over again.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:29 PM   #76 (permalink)
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deja vu all over again.
This year is different
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:32 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Sadly you're right... Bargnani.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:32 PM   #78 (permalink)
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yup its 2011-2012 year of the IL MAGO
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:35 PM   #79 (permalink)
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This year is different
Yeah - I get it. Fuck me. This is the year.

Without a doubt it will be telling and decisive. I believe the three previous were pretty much telling and decisive, and the coach should get a bit of a chance to have the deadwood cleared for him. But I could be wrong. We will see. This thread is little bit like the To All the Doubters Thread....should be epic. I've repeated myself enough already so I'll keep myself out of it from here on in.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:38 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Yeah - I get it. Fuck me. This is the year.

Without a doubt it will be telling and decisive. I believe the three previous were pretty much telling and decisive, and the coach should get a bit of a chance to have the deadwood cleared for him. But I could be wrong. We will see. This thread is little bit like the To All the Doubters Thread....should be epic. I've repeated myself enough already so I'll keep myself out of it from here on in.
Nah ...reminds me of this one.

The "New" Chris Bosh

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