Bayless offer pulled - Page 4
Old 07-06-2012, 06:41 PM   #61 (permalink)
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why would it have to be a longer, unwanted deal? Why couldn't it be Iggy or someone like that?
Because if we are considering Calderon overpaid, so would the other team, no?

Look, personally I agree with SJ when he says that our team as a whole is not good enough for a PG like Jose. However, this also means that there are really very few teams who could really use him. Lakers were one such, and they are not anymore. Phily won't use his talents any better than Raps do, IMHO.

Try to look at these proposed deals from the other team's perspective. Why would they do the deal?
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:45 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I don't like this move just because it means were going to keep Calderon. I wouldn't mind Calderon off the bench if he wasn't such a valuable trading piece, he's both a good player and an expiring contract. He can easily net us a good player in a trade with say Ed Davis.

Also he's actually good enough that he's going to be in contention with Lowery for minutes. Yes the season will start off with Lowery starting but any time Lowery begins to struggle, he'll just get pulled out for Jose, who is Casey's favourite player on the team. That's what I didn't like about Casey this past season, he didn't let players play through struggle, namely Ed Davis, in a obvious throw away season. Imagine a season that matters with a shot at the playoffs, Casey will bench Lowery for sure if he has the Jose option. Lowery is an UFA in two years and we know he has problems with being benched, if Jose takes a lot of his minutes he's going to want to leave.
So, now we are trading players to make sure our coach doesn't play them too much? That same coach who apparently motivated them and made them play harder defemsively? Perfect logic.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:46 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Because if we are considering Calderon overpaid, so would the other team, no?

Look, personally I agree with SJ when he says that our team as a whole is not good enough for a PG like Jose. However, this also means that there are really very few teams who could really use him. Lakers were one such, and they are not anymore. Phily won't use his talents any better than Raps do, IMHO.

Try to look at these proposed deals from the other team's perspective. Why would they do the deal?
A proposed deal such as Iggy/Vucevic for DD/Jose/Ed? Why wouldn't they look at that deal? They get two young, promising players to see if they fit before needing to make decisions on them and a guy that helps clear more salary at the end of the year while still likely being a good trade chip in February. I'm looking at their side... though that's just one example. Just because some look at Jose as an albatross doesn't mean that he is. He's a solid PG on a contract that no longer is crazy.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:48 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Yeah, Jose needs to go, amnesty him and pick up a back up, or package him for a SF, simple.
Doesnt make sense to use an Amnesty on a guy with an expiring Contract...

Wouldn't it benefit Kyle Lowry to have a Veteran like Calderon who's been here his entire career to help him through the transition process? Or would you rather have Bayless relieving him? We need some stability, Calderon brings that off the bench, and I highly doubt he would care...The guy is raking in the cash, and was nearly traded once before..

As I mentioned, he's an expiring contract, he will be a very attractive player to a team on the fringe or a team that has injuries...
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:51 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Doesnt make sense to use an Amnesty on a guy with an expiring Contract...

Wouldn't it benefit Kyle Lowry to have a Veteran like Calderon who's been here his entire career to help him through the transition process? Or would you rather have Bayless relieving him? We need some stability, Calderon brings that off the bench, and I highly doubt he would care...The guy is raking in the cash, and was nearly traded once before..

As I mentioned, he's an expiring contract, he will be a very attractive player to a team on the fringe or a team that has injuries...
Did you watch what happened in Houston? Lowry and Dragic combo did not work well, I'm assuming the same is going to happen here, learn from the past. Yes jose is awesome, we just need other fillers, jose as a backup isnt cutting it.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:53 PM   #66 (permalink)
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So, now we are trading players to make sure our coach doesn't play them too much? That same coach who apparently motivated them and made them play harder defemsively? Perfect logic.
The logic is why you would have two players with close skill levels fighting for minutes when your clearly invested in one and risk losing him. What happened the last time Toronto had two good PGs? We couldn't decide who to keep and we ended up trading one in an ill advised trade.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:54 PM   #67 (permalink)
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A proposed deal such as Iggy/Vucevic for DD/Jose/Ed? Why wouldn't they look at that deal? They get two young, promising players to see if they fit before needing to make decisions on them and a guy that helps clear more salary at the end of the year while still likely being a good trade chip in February. I'm looking at their side... though that's just one example. Just because some look at Jose as an albatross doesn't mean that he is. He's a solid PG on a contract that no longer is crazy.
Ok, all right, sure. Bugs the hell out of me that fucking Babcock picked Hoffa over Iggy, but what's done is done. I still don't see Phily blowing up the team, although they did drop Brand, but we will find out soon enough, I suppose.

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Old 07-06-2012, 06:55 PM   #68 (permalink)
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The logic is why you would have two players with close skill levels fighting for minutes when your clearly invested in one and risk losing him. What happened the last time Toronto had two good PGs? We couldn't decide who to keep and we ended up trading one in an ill advised trade.
exactly, Jose needs to go and we need to grab a starting legit SF
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:56 PM   #69 (permalink)
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The logic is why you would have two players with close skill levels fighting for minutes when your clearly invested in one and risk losing him. What happened the last time Toronto had two good PGs? We couldn't decide who to keep and we ended up trading one in an ill advised trade.
But the skill level and age and athletic abilities ARE NOT THE SAME! They are good at very different things, that's the beauty of it.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:56 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Doesnt make sense to use an Amnesty on a guy with an expiring Contract...

Wouldn't it benefit Kyle Lowry to have a Veteran like Calderon who's been here his entire career to help him through the transition process? Or would you rather have Bayless relieving him? We need some stability, Calderon brings that off the bench, and I highly doubt he would care...The guy is raking in the cash, and was nearly traded once before..

As I mentioned, he's an expiring contract, he will be a very attractive player to a team on the fringe or a team that has injuries...
I'm against Amnestying him too, seems like a waste of an asset but that being said we should trade him. Chicago for one is interested and there were talks we re interested in Deng, we should try and make a move for him.
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Old 07-06-2012, 06:58 PM   #71 (permalink)
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But the skill level and age and athletic abilities ARE NOT THE SAME! They are good at very different things, that's the beauty of it.
There not but Casey doesn't care about age or athletic ability, he cares about results, which Jose is going to get you. As Casey demonstrated last year he doesn't care who should play or who shouldn't, it's who performs. Aaron Grey had a spurt where he was getting more minutes than Ed Davis...
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:02 PM   #72 (permalink)
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There not but Casey doesn't care about age or athletic ability, he cares about results, which Jose is going to get you. As Casey demonstrated last year he doesn't care who should play or who shouldn't, it's who performs. Aaron Grey had a spurt where he was getting more minutes than Ed Davis...
Not to be too smug about it, but if Casey thinks Jose would get him better results than Lowry, Raptors are doing something very wrong.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:03 PM   #73 (permalink)
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There not but Casey doesn't care about age or athletic ability, he cares about results, which Jose is going to get you. As Casey demonstrated last year he doesn't care who should play or who shouldn't, it's who performs. Aaron Grey had a spurt where he was getting more minutes than Ed Davis...
It could be argued that Aaron Gray is a better prospect than Ed Davis. Just because you didn't draft a guy..... Gray provided something this team desperately needed and Ed Davis didn't. He sucked. If he can't beat out Aaron Gray for minutes he deserves to sit.

If Lowry isn't better than Jose, then we'd be foolish to annoint him the starter of the future and just blindly go with it. That's likely not going to be the case, and Jose is a veteran and is professional. It's not going to be a TJ Ford scenario.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:13 PM   #74 (permalink)
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It could be argued that Aaron Gray is a better prospect than Ed Davis. Just because you didn't draft a guy..... Gray provided something this team desperately needed and Ed Davis didn't. He sucked. If he can't beat out Aaron Gray for minutes he deserves to sit.

If Lowry isn't better than Jose, then we'd be foolish to annoint him the starter of the future and just blindly go with it. That's likely not going to be the case, and Jose is a veteran and is professional. It's not going to be a TJ Ford scenario.
Your right if they were given a chance in the first place. Firstly players develop by playing but if there not given the chance how can we expect them to improve. If Lowery is the starter for instance and playing majority of the minutes for a lot of games and still struggling that's when you give Calderon the starting mantle. But if you keep them half and half every game your limiting Lowery's potential.

I'll give you an example, last year Bayless should have started even though he was the worse player. He should have been playing so we could actually assess where he's at. Instead he wasn't given the chance, only when Calderon was injured, we saw some spurts and then Calderon came back and took his spot back and Bayless fell off. Now we still don't have a clear picture if Bayless would have or wouldn't have succeeded as a starter.

We had so many different starting line ups where guys who we knew wouldn't be coming would be playing more than our core guys, Rasual Butler for one. We should have threw our guys in the fire and seen who came out alive and who died and burned.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:16 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Your right if they were given a chance in the first place. Firstly players develop by playing but if there not given the chance how can we expect them to improve. If Lowery is the starter for instance and playing majority of the minutes for a lot of games and still struggling that's when you give Calderon the starting mantle. But if you keep them half and half every game your limiting Lowery's potential.

I'll give you an example, last year Bayless should have started even though he was the worse player. He should have been playing so we could actually assess where he's at. Instead he wasn't given the chance, only when Calderon was injured, we saw some spurts and then Calderon came back and took his spot back and Bayless fell off. Now we still don't have a clear picture if Bayless would have or wouldn't have succeeded as a starter.

We had so many different starting line ups where guys who we knew wouldn't be coming would be playing more than our core guys, Rasual Butler for one. We should have threw our guys in the fire and seen who came out alive and who died and burned.
I can see your point. Not sure Bayless needed to start, but a lot of those games he should have been given extended minutes for sure. I think we had too many young guys though, and I think Casey wanted to rid the team of many bad habits, which he somewhat accomplished.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:27 PM   #76 (permalink)
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I can see your point. Not sure Bayless needed to start, but a lot of those games he should have been given extended minutes for sure. I think we had too many young guys though, and I think Casey wanted to rid the team of many bad habits, which he somewhat accomplished.
I agree but I think it would have been better for him to coach the way he did this season. He was coaching like we were going to be a playoff team and disregarded the fact it was a development season. The only thing though because it was his first year and he wanted the to set the tone where he takes no bull shit and you'll be benched if your not playing hard, he wouldn't be able to do that if he was letting guys play while struggling. It was bad timing for him in that regard but I still think he could have made it work better, I'm still unhappy with how little our guys developed this season.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:29 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Jose played his best year this season, his trade value has gone way up, we need to deal him, maybe a late first? or even early second. If we dont get a starting SF straight up trade if the team has capspace, or a filler around 4-5M a legit SF would be nice
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:36 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Jose played his best year this season, his trade value has gone way up, we need to deal him, maybe a late first? or even early second. If we dont get a starting SF straight up trade if the team has capspace, or a filler around 4-5M a legit SF would be nice
WAY up? If so he will be dealt, but unless we add other pieces i can't see us getting a haul on him. If he isn't dealt then the market value for him is being overstated, we'll see.
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:36 PM   #79 (permalink)
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Gray is a UFA...
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Old 07-06-2012, 07:40 PM   #80 (permalink)
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allen iverson for backup point guard!!
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