bargs out, but for what price ? - Page 4

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View Poll Results: what trade would you want ?
trade 1 4 13.79%
trade 2 6 20.69%
trade 3 2 6.90%
trade 4 4 13.79%
trade 5 0 0%
trade 6 0 0%
trade 7 6 20.69%
trade 8 4 13.79%
another (explain) 3 10.34%
Voters: 29. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-09-2011, 06:46 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I don't want to pick on you, but you're the last quote here, but it's a sentiment that I've addressed time and time again.

IF Bargs has played that poorly then WHY are we going to sell low on an asset that is STILL young?

We gotta be patient. I'd trade Bargs if he's having a decent start to the season and we're still struggling (because face it, we will) and we can move him for an asset we need.

Right now, we'd be dumb to sell this low.
And what happens if he doesn't improve any further on defense, which is likely. Let's face it, at this point you might get decent return. If you wait, who knows what you'll get. AT the same time i don't mind waiting to see if his stock can rise first, but only if a decent enough deal can't be had this summer.
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Old 05-09-2011, 06:53 PM   #62 (permalink)
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And what happens if he doesn't improve any further on defense, which is likely. Let's face it, at this point you might get decent return. If you wait, who knows what you'll get. AT the same time i don't mind waiting to see if his stock can rise first, but only if a decent enough deal can't be had this summer.
Sorry, how is it likely? I can cite numerous examples where a poor defender (in youth) becomes a good defender with age. Here's one, Ray Allen off the top of my head.

Again, only panic stricken people sell low (typically).

Factoring in skill set, age and position, there's a likelihood that remains what he is right now (therefore keeping the market the same) or actually improving in SOME areas.

The wisest move would be to trade him next December (IF there is a season).
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:45 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Not necessarily complaining about his offense, just disagreeing that he creates his own shots. The guy is often spoon fed shots 20-25ft out.
Tell me any 7 footer who can create a shot 20-25ft out. That is highly unrealistic, no one wants a 7 footer to create a shot from that distance. If you want that to happen then you are barking up the wrong tree.
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Old 05-09-2011, 07:57 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Good read, thought I'd repost from Raptors Republic

http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/04/2...anis-position/

In a question to find the answer to what position Andrea Bargnani should play, the RR research team dug deep into the archives to solve a mystery that has haunted us for years. Naaah…there was nothing on TV so I went to 82games.com. Before I get into that, I want to give some props to Matt Devlin.

Him and Kevin McHale are calling the Spurs/Grizzlies series and Devlin has been great to listen to. I can’t wrap my head around why he’s such a bore when calling the Raptors game, and no, it has nothing to do with the basketball being played. Devlin’s getting all his stats right, he’s not screwing up the score, or making mistakes like crediting the wrong people with the rebound etc. I’m sure it helps that the TNT production crew is a million times better than the Raptors’, seeing how they have replays cued up as soon as the play ends, and probably are a lot quicker in conveying the relevant stats/updates to Devlin. This isn’t the first year I’ve noticed Devlin perform significantly better in the post-season on Turner than with the Raptors. Must be something in the air, or it just might be Leo Rautins.

Individual opponent PER/48 is the subject of today’s post, you can find them on 82games.com. They measure the player’s PER by position along with the opposing player playing the same position at the time. The data can be skewed because, for example, the opposing small forward might not be guarding the Raptors small forward because of cross-switching, so keep that in mind when looking at these numbers. Here are three findings, and as with any statistic viewed in a vacuum, please take these with a sack of salt.

Andrea Bargnani’s natural position isn’t necessarily a four in the NBA

The worst net PER/48 belongs to Andrea Bargnani who came in at -4.9 at the center position. No surprises here. The issue of Bargnani’s “natural position” has come into view since the exit interviews, and the numbers here don’t do much in proving his case that he’s better suited at the four. Bargnani was -1.3 at the four spot but played very little of the position, so let’s look back at years past:

Year Net PER/48 (Time at PF) Net PER/48 (Time at C)
2006-07 0 (27%) -8.1 (4%)
2007-08 -7.1 (37%) -1 (9%)
2008-09 -1.4 (47%) -0.7 (8%)
2009-10 -3.4 (47%) -1.8 (22%)
2010-11 -1.3 (1%) -4.9 (58%)
Hmm…so before last season when he was officially moved over to the center and played only “1%” of his time there, he fared better at the center position for three straight years. I was hoping for a dramatic difference in positional play but wasn’t quite expecting one, mostly because of a long-held belief: positional lines at the bigs are very blurred, and can be simplified by saying that in most cases you need two bigs who play like bigs, regardless of position classification.

Memory recalls his most effective year to be his rookie season where he was a great boost off the bench backing up Chris Bosh, as Rasho Nesterovic occupied a starting center role in a mostly defensive capacity. The stats bear this out and I would be perfectly satisfied with Bargnani reverting to the same role – scoring punch off the bench.

Last edited by DocHoliday99; 05-09-2011 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 05-10-2011, 01:53 AM   #65 (permalink)
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It was actually talked about quite a bit by the broadcasters when the ROTY talks were going on. [Fields] was in the discussion along with Wall.

The trade definitely helped to derail most of that talk though when the dynamic of the team changed.
Big market bullshit strikes again.

Fields looks to be a nice rotation player down the road, no question, but to put him up there with Griffin and Wall is ludicrous (or, as some people on here put it, ludacris). How about Cousins and Greg Monroe? Heck, Gary Neal's 10 points in 21 mins went completely under the radar, because even though his team finished #1 in the West, San Antonio is not a hypefest like NY, LA and now Miami.
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Old 05-10-2011, 02:26 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Big market bullshit strikes again.

Fields looks to be a nice rotation player down the road, no question, but to put him up there with Griffin and Wall is ludicrous (or, as some people on here put it, ludacris). How about Cousins and Greg Monroe? Heck, Gary Neal's 10 points in 21 mins went completely under the radar, because even though his team finished #1 in the West, San Antonio is not a hypefest like NY, LA and now Miami.
Oh man... Look at his actual game, not stats. Lets say Blake, Cousins and Wall were best (still a question mark on Cousins and Wall) but Fields takes 4th best rookie spot with no competition. Look at his amazing bb IQ. He is one of the best in the league in improvising plays and moving without the ball, his decision making is unbelievable. He can find mismatch or open man every time. Fields also hustles, boxout and rebound extremely well.
He was all-right starter during his rookie season, so how he is only to be a rotation player? And Knicks was not the worst, least talented team or smth. Fields was good starter on a good team during his rookie season. He also was crowd favorite.
He is way better than Neal. Neal is a spot shooter and nothing else. Come on...
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:07 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BballWatcher View Post
Big market bullshit strikes again.

Fields looks to be a nice rotation player down the road, no question, but to put him up there with Griffin and Wall is ludicrous (or, as some people on here put it, ludacris). How about Cousins and Greg Monroe? Heck, Gary Neal's 10 points in 21 mins went completely under the radar, because even though his team finished #1 in the West, San Antonio is not a hypefest like NY, LA and now Miami.
Did you even read the last couple of pages?

Because I already withdrew my statement.... unless you're just looking for an argument?
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:31 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Sorry, how is it likely? I can cite numerous examples where a poor defender (in youth) becomes a good defender with age. Here's one, Ray Allen off the top of my head.

Again, only panic stricken people sell low (typically).

Factoring in skill set, age and position, there's a likelihood that remains what he is right now (therefore keeping the market the same) or actually improving in SOME areas.

The wisest move would be to trade him next December (IF there is a season).
you can't use previous examples with bargnani, it just doesn't work with him. and in response to ur example, Ray Allen has a ridiculous work ethic. if Bargnani trained with him, he would quit basketball out-right.

so these are my odds: 1/3 decline, 1/3 same, 1/3 improve
that essentially gives us 2/3 of sucking, so these odds are telling us he's like a car....the longer we keep him to more he depreciates
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:01 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MARTYNAS View Post
Oh man... Look at his actual game, not stats. Lets say Blake, Cousins and Wall were best (still a question mark on Cousins and Wall) but Fields takes 4th best rookie spot with no competition. Look at his amazing bb IQ. He is one of the best in the league in improvising plays and moving without the ball, his decision making is unbelievable. He can find mismatch or open man every time. Fields also hustles, boxout and rebound extremely well.
He was all-right starter during his rookie season, so how he is only to be a rotation player? And Knicks was not the worst, least talented team or smth. Fields was good starter on a good team during his rookie season. He also was crowd favorite.
He is way better than Neal. Neal is a spot shooter and nothing else. Come on...
I agree that Fields has a very high basketball IQ, but you're extremely overrating his overall ability. He doesn't have the explosive first step, the handles, or that killer mentality to be a star. Rather, he'll be a great complementary player for any team - a "glue" guy that plays very good defense can hit the open shot when required. In other words, he's like Shane Battier and Derek Fisher. Nothing wrong with that, as contending teams need such players. The Raptors, for instance, could surely use a Landry Fields.
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