Bargs Of Arc.
Old 01-23-2008, 11:47 PM   #1 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,289
Representing:
Default Bargs Of Arc.

The difference in Bargs game tonight...

...They gave up the dream of him being a post player at this point in his career.

Right back where he was soo good last year....a few shots drop.

Motivation to board....Confidence up...

..Bingo...Bango...

We beat the celts....that simple.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 12:04 AM   #2 (permalink)
Gam zeh ya'avor

The Gatekeeper
 
MikeToronto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 3,935
Representing:
Default

Well, it's a bit like the story of trying to fit a square peg into the round hole.

Bargs will never be a prototypical centre, nor should he be, at least not on offence. That's why a Moon-like small forward capable of playing closer to the basket and, hopefully, offensive rebounding is so vital in our starting five. For the life of me I don't understand all those jumpers from Moon along with his relative meekness on the boards tonight.
MikeToronto is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 12:10 AM   #3 (permalink)
We going to the 'ship!

Senior Member

 
Ball Don't Lie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 10,865
Representing:
Default

This game is a prime example of why so many hate Leo. 6 games ago all he talked about was Bargs having to get on the boards and play D FIRST and do the other things to be effective, then this game he turns it around and says we should just let him be himself and let him do his thing on offence and it'll lead to his rebounding and defence. Leo's such a joke.

The difference with Bargs tonight was he was touching the ball A LOT more often due to Jose probing in the lane. The last 6 games or whatever it was he shot like 1/13 combined or whatever he barely touched the ball. He's an offensive player, he needs his touches to get going, he shouldnt be treated the same way as Jason Kapono because, as shown tonight, his impact can be MASSIVE when he gets his touches and shats. He just took what the D gave him. Fantastic game for Bargs outside of the 4th where Perkins made him his bitch on the boards, but we'll just forget that . Hard to get boards when the guy is on your back and you arent getting the call on the road, and none of OUR guards behind Perkins to tap it away incase the ball goes over Andreas head. Our help D and rebounding still stanks.
Ball Don't Lie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 07:33 AM   #4 (permalink)
a paranoid android

My name is Iigo Montoya

 
Belsius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Madrid, Spain
Posts: 10,547
Representing:
Default

YEah we did a decent job on the boards, till the forth, and maybe part of the 3rd, I dont remember well. I check the boards for both teams in haltime and they were only two up I think.
Belsius is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 08:07 AM   #5 (permalink)
blah!

nosce te ipsum


 
fancylad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: east side.
Posts: 14,623
Representing:
Default

well i was thinking about this on my morning walk to union station when i got the "Finesse shampoo" jingle caught in my head:

You've got two types of characters.
a. Finesse player with sweet shooting stroke.
b. bad-ass, tough, grind it out bigman.

Bargnani has been option "a" his whole basketball life - and he's been good at it too. For me it would really seem near-impossible to make one into the other. And sure the main issue in Andrea's transition has been a mental block. He's developed "finesse" habits in all his playing years, and people expect him to change them just like that? it's not going to happen.

As i see it, this transition is almost as difficult as it would be for a player like REggie Evans to become a finesse player.
fancylad is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 08:18 AM   #6 (permalink)
landry fields forever

Administrator

 
Acie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Living in a van down by the river
Posts: 21,651
Representing:
Default

It's easy! He made his first few shots and then the effort was there (on one end of the floor at least).
Acie is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 09:44 AM   #7 (permalink)
adoring his baby girl.

Senior Member
 
Sick, Wicked and Nasty!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Canada eh?
Posts: 3,288
Representing:
Default

I can't disagree i like his role the way he was used last night for sure.
Sick, Wicked and Nasty! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 10:07 AM   #8 (permalink)
enjoying having the keys to destiny

perusing ancient database
 
ClingRap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The far side of the Universe.
Posts: 1,895
Representing:
Default

been trying to see highlights! i missed the frackin' game because of class, but it looked like Bargs was scoring from a bit of everywhere...mixing it up. nice to see...but i'd like to see what he does over the next 10-15 games..
ClingRap is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 10:26 AM   #9 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,938
Representing:
Default

I find it a little funny that Sam was criticised often for not using Bargnani properly by getting him shots in the paint and the post. Now he's criticised for having done just that.

To me - Bargnani just has to stop trying to be a great player yesterday. He's been at his best this season when he works well within the team game, on both ends. In other games, like against Portland, I think he tries too hard to establish his greatness. He knows he is better than Roy or Aldridge, and he wants the world to know. But basketball doesn't work that way for most players. You need your team to make things easier for you, and then you can capitalize on that to show your greatness. It's about taking advantage of what is there, instead of forcing shit that is not there.

He still pissed me off with letting the ball bounce off of him all night under the boards. He should have had another four or five rebounds, and that would have made up for a lot of the imbalance that was evident in that department. He just still has to get the drive and hunger to grab the ones that don't fall into his lap. Then we're talking about something. And I think that is in him. He is a young guy.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 11:05 AM   #10 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,289
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
I find it a little funny that Sam was criticised often for not using Bargnani properly by getting him shots in the paint and the post. Now he's criticised for having done just that.

To me - Bargnani just has to stop trying to be a great player yesterday. He's been at his best this season when he works well within the team game, on both ends. In other games, like against Portland, I think he tries too hard to establish his greatness. He knows he is better than Roy or Aldridge, and he wants the world to know. But basketball doesn't work that way for most players. You need your team to make things easier for you, and then you can capitalize on that to show your greatness. It's about taking advantage of what is there, instead of forcing shit that is not there.

He still pissed me off with letting the ball bounce off of him all night under the boards. He should have had another four or five rebounds, and that would have made up for a lot of the imbalance that was evident in that department. He just still has to get the drive and hunger to grab the ones that don't fall into his lap. Then we're talking about something. And I think that is in him. He is a young guy.
Your constant defense of Sam is getting nausiating. "Shots in the paint" where? when?...post?....when?

He let Bargs do exactly what he wasn't let Bargs do....stand at the Arc, drive when ya can...pass when your challanges...take the open shot...don't worry about what we've been trying to teach you/....just be Bargs.

As of the rebounding....I agree.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 11:30 AM   #11 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,938
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
Your constant defense of Sam is getting nausiating. "Shots in the paint" where? when?...post?....when?

He let Bargs do exactly what he wasn't let Bargs do....stand at the Arc, drive when ya can...pass when your challanges...take the open shot...don't worry about what we've been trying to teach you/....just be Bargs.

As of the rebounding....I agree.
I nauseate you? Shocking. And I couldn't be happier.

What have they been trying to teach him? Playing in the post. And that is what Sam was getting criticized for not doing last year. Remember when Bargs was missing all those shots behind the arc? There were shouts and whining about how Bargnani was not being used properly, that he had to get some shots in the paint, and use his size in the post where he could then make plays. Now we've seen that being tried plenty. And it was just a big mistake?

You're going to tell me that Bargs has not had any chance to be Bargs? He hasn't stood outside and drove when he could? Not at all? And he shouldn't worry about developing into a solid, all-around player? Just what - be a two guard if that's what he wants to be? And if he turns out to be the next KVH then it will be Sam's fault right?

It must hurt to always be so wrong. It must even make you a little sick, and vomit in your mouth a little. Don't blame me for that.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 11:39 AM   #12 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,289
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
I nauseate you? Shocking. And I couldn't be happier.

What have they been trying to teach him? Playing in the post. And that is what Sam was getting criticized for not doing last year. Remember when Bargs was missing all those shots behind the arc? There were shouts and whining about how Bargnani was not being used properly, that he had to get some shots in the paint, and use his size in the post where he could then make plays. Now we've seen that being tried plenty. And it was just a big mistake?

You're going to tell me that Bargs has not had any chance to be Bargs? He hasn't stood outside and drove when he could? Not at all? And he shouldn't worry about developing into a solid, all-around player? Just what - be a two guard if that's what he wants to be? And if he turns out to be the next KVH then it will be Sam's fault right?

It must hurt to always be so wrong. It must even make you a little sick, and vomit in your mouth a little. Don't blame me for that.
Look...They have talked about how they are going to strip him down and build him back up. How the way he payed last year, isnt the way they want him to play. I would venture to guess that Bargs had it in his head the whole time....last night he did what he does. I will take the next KVH over the the next Hump.

I have been wrong before, I will be wrong again. I could go pull some threads where you said Jose Calderon, is effective because he plays against backups...so being wrong isnt exclusivley mine.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 11:50 AM   #13 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,938
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Benzo View Post
I have been wrong before, I will be wrong again. I could go pull some threads where you said Jose Calderon, is effective because he plays against backups...so being wrong isnt exclusivley mine.

Please do so. I said TJ is more proven against starters. I never said Jose could only play against bench guys. Before you ever arrived on the scene I was calling for him to start instead of James. I said that he had a starter's mentality, even if his development might not have been up to it then.

So - wrong again.


And just so I've got this straight - you do not want to see Bargnani develop offensively beyond what we saw last night?

And the defense he played last night - should that be discouraged? Because that was not Bargs being Bargs. I've seen Bargs being Bargs, and it often does not involve playing much defense at all, whether he's lighting it up or not. He does actually need to effect the outcome of games whether he's having an off night or not, and from everything he said last night - he accepts that challenge. But you go ahead and think that the pressure of developing into a consistent impact player is too much for him to handle, and that he should just fill the void that Mo left behind, and let's all party.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 11:52 AM   #14 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,938
Representing:
Default

Oh - and Bargs being KVH. Does that make him better than Bosh?
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 12:04 PM   #15 (permalink)
kicking himself for being so emotionally invested in the Roller-coaster Raptors

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,489
Representing:
Default

What I find interesting is that 90% of the time, when Bargnani is playing well, it's because he's being unspectacular.

Aside from the odd drive where he catches a guy with his pants down, or a spectacular bullet/no look pass (his passing is really great for a guy his size), Bargnani's best skill is that he's a no-nonsense shooter. Like young Dirk. When he sets his feet and takes an open 15 footer or 3 pointer, as long as he's not fading away and has his feet set, it has a good chance of going in.

The problem is that he's been so antsy this year, trying to learn 10 different things at once (including playing in the post, where he has had some success and should continue to go down low whenever possible).

Say what you will about Sam's X's and O's coaching (I cringe thinking about playoff matchups), but his 'you have to earn everything' coaching of young players has gotten huge results thus far. He's a true player's coach. He coaxed Charlie V. to be as consistent as he's ever been as a rookie. He's gotten so much more out of Bosh by pushing him. So many young players have improved under him (Humphries anyone? He was a stiff for Utah, albeit a young one).
BballWatcher is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 12:04 PM   #16 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,289
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post
Please do so. I said TJ is more proven against starters. I never said Jose could only play against bench guys. Before you ever arrived on the scene I was calling for him to start instead of James. I said that he had a starter's mentality, even if his development might not have been up to it then.

So - wrong again.


And just so I've got this straight - you do not want to see Bargnani develop offensively beyond what we saw last night?

And the defense he played last night - should that be discouraged? Because that was not Bargs being Bargs. I've seen Bargs being Bargs, and it often does not involve playing much defense at all, whether he's lighting it up or not. He does actually need to effect the outcome of games whether he's having an off night or not, and from everything he said last night - he accepts that challenge. But you go ahead and think that the pressure of developing into a consistent impact player is too much for him to handle, and that he should just fill the void that Mo left behind, and let's all party.

Ahhh yes...fence sitters unit....To say you havnt been critical of Jose is just insane...and you constantly have pushed for "The Starter" which should be his nickname. The evolution of the whole Jose thing is laughable, but I will get to that in a another thread. It's easy to be partially right all the time, when you never definitavily say anything. Bargs was always a good defender, I still think as a big, he is our best man on man defender. Of course, I would like him to be a more complete player, but I want it to happen naturally not force it on a 22 year old kid.

If you must bring yourself to critique my love of Mo, thats fine, and If you don't think the way Mo, played defense against the leagues best, is missed, that fine too...its not true..but its fine. Mostley when I bring up Mo, LX, its tounge and cheek, I understand his faults, he was just my favorite Rap.

"Before I came on the scene". None of that matters it was a B.B, "Before Benzo". You gave cudos to Jose over James...Thanks.

BBargs has been mishandled since he cam back from his injury, atthe begining of the year he was better than Bosh...hell at the begining of the year KVH was better than Bosh, but I am willing to accept that Bosh as become a great player, and as a Raptor fan, I am thnkful I was wrong (for now).

As far as Bargs being better than Bosh one day...stay tuned, that show isnt over yet.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 12:40 PM   #17 (permalink)
LX
present minded

In the Paint


 
LX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 27,938
Representing:
Default

But he's going to be KVH or Mo and be better than Bosh? I'm very confused. I'm not meaning to rip Mo at all. I just don't think it's a great idea for Bargnani at 7 feet and 250 pounds, to be Mo. He won't be a prototypical C, but he can be an All-Star player and a dominant player, if he can play C while making use of his inherent versatility.

When have I been critical of Jose? I've just called for balanced criticism instead of favoritism. I have called for not looking past Jose's blemishes, or anyone's for that matter, just so some shots can be taken at the coach. I have stated numerous times how much I love him, honor him in my avy's more than any other player, and own and wear his jersey and no one elses. And if I have failed to make myself clear by constantly saying that Jose and TJ are more and more the same kind of player the more that they fit into the system and continue to develop - if that is fence sitting while the bitching at TJ and the love fest for Jose raged on endlessly last season, and while everyone and their mother claimed and still claim they are just completely different players, then I suck, plain and simple.


But I still called for Sam to win COTY at the start of the year last year, when they started poorly, and when they turned the corner. Feeling queasy?

You on the other hand, said that it was an enormous mistake for BC to give him a contract. That kinda paints you in a corner when Bargnani plays shitty, because it must be what Sam has done, no matter what Bargnani or anyone else might say. That's great for you really going out on a limb. Don't get too lonely out there.
LX is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 12:51 PM   #18 (permalink)
hibernating

Retired Administrator
 
Benzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,289
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post

You on the other hand, said that it was an enormous mistake for BC to give him a contract. That kinda paints you in a corner when Bargnani plays shitty, because of what Sam has done, no matter what Bargnani or anyone else might say. That's great for you really going out on a limb. Don't get too lonely out there.
Ummm I isolated this paragraph because the rest is just more fence sitting. More of the "We are better with both". Of course we are, but we need to face the fact that we can't keep both.

Anyway...on with the show. Your parapraph confuses me. Yes I think Sam is overrated, yes I think the staff has affected Bargs game. It is lonley accually having an opinion, while I may not use the biggest words in the world, or have wicked avatars, it is no secret where I stand. At leas t I can give SWAN a little love for saying...this is where I stand, instead of riding the fence having no real opinion and then no matter what happens claim to be right because I have a picture of Jose on my wall.
Benzo is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 01:02 PM   #19 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 9,390
Representing:
Default

Leo was absolutely horrible lately, especially at Bargnani ...
moremilk is online now   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 01-24-2008, 01:17 PM   #20 (permalink)
adoring his baby girl.

Senior Member
 
Sick, Wicked and Nasty!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Canada eh?
Posts: 3,288
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by moremilk View Post
Leo was absolutely horrible lately, especially at Bargnani ...
Wow...out of the blue hatred for Leo. Some of you folks seriously need to listen to the 590 broadcast rather than Chuck and Leo...the fact the broadcast team is standing out over that game last night is silly imo.

Anyways, what I remember LEo saying is that AB needed to get his offense going to get the confidence back to put the effort into the defence. It's backwards from what the coaches want..i.e. defense and rebounding and the offense will come but i think he raises a good point and as a coach and former player i'll take it as an objective opinion. Some young players put a lot of personal emphasis on their O and when it's not going..they can't get into the rest. I think AB might be that type of guy. It's a reasonable statement at any rate...dont' see that as being horrible unless i missed something big
Sick, Wicked and Nasty! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bargs ... a 4 or 5 Carlito Toronto Raptors 26 01-04-2010 06:01 PM
The Grooming of Bargs Snooch Toronto Raptors 28 07-06-2009 09:45 AM
Prediction:Bargs.... Benzo Toronto Raptors 40 07-03-2009 01:25 PM
bargs off the bench! JJ28 Toronto Raptors 23 12-08-2008 09:38 PM
Bargs. Benzo Toronto Raptors 3 03-02-2008 02:31 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24