Bargnani's summer - Page 2
Old 12-17-2007, 09:37 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Well Doc.... Bargs is not a bust , coach Mitch has put him in this position and coach mitch will have to get him out of this funk . We all must remember what type of player we have here a #1 pick who could have won the rookie of the year if not for his apendix surgery late last year. We all must rememeber that it was the GM of the Raptors that got coach mitch to start giving Bargs mins last year. We all must remember that coach mitch did not have the patience :mad: to play Bargs at the beginning last year. We all must remember last year that the rapts looked better as Bargs got more playing time .The more Bargs played the better he got . Remember last year what Bargs said why he was playing better after a slow start to the season...the answer was playing more minutes made him a better player . We must remember that Bargs was arguebly our best player this year at the start of the year . We must remember that coach mitch stated that he was taking Bargs out of the starting line up so it could help Rasho .We must all remember what Bargs strengths are and don't make him into something hes not ....We must all remember the comparisons to Dirk we all talked about...what ever happened to that. Oh yeah now I remember that coach mitch wants to change Bargs and make him a player that the player himself can't remember who he is.
I dont' buy this for a second.

1. He had plenty of minutes and he's just not been consistant at all.
2. Colangelo agrees he's not ready to start at center(heard in interview).
3. Colangelo agrees he needs to be taught the low-post game(i.e. become a player he's not).
4. This is the nba, players have to keep their confidence and work themselves out of slumps. They dont' get handed minutes when they don't deserve them.

I'm not saying he's a bust, but he's in a major slump and he's to blame..not Sam. Sam has to do what he can to win games... if a player isnt' doing his part, there are 14 others.
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Old 12-17-2007, 11:41 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I know that some may want to jump down my throat for saying this, but I wouldn't mind if BC actually used Bargnani as trade bait at this point. Why I'm saying that, is that I honestly don't think he fits our system considering the inlfux of SF's we already have and I actually find it laughable for those who think and hope his conversion to a C is going to happen any time soon. He can't play in the post worth a lick, his interior defense is anything but to be desired and for a guy who 7 feet tall he's one of the worst rebounders I've ever watched and doesn't even put out an effort.

Anyhow, I realize that its still too soon to write him off but I'm just getting more and omre frustrated by the game.
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Old 12-17-2007, 12:06 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Frustration is warranted, but I'm a little more patient overall... I dont' think he should be getting lots of minutes until he earns them, but i'm prepared to keep him around since really his trade value wouldn't be much and nothing compared to his upside(which i still beleive in). I think this whole center conversion thing is a bad idea. I say use him like he was used last year, but stay on him for rebounds. Use Bosh and Hump for the post stuff and we'll be laughing. When was the last time AB even attempted to roll back to the 3pt line after setting a screen? He was a deadly option there...but now he rolls to the paint and either isn't open, looks disinterested or gets a pass and rushes an off-balanced shot. He's a liability out there when we're playing away from his strengths.
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:01 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I dont' buy this for a second.

1. He had plenty of minutes and he's just not been consistant at all.
2. Colangelo agrees he's not ready to start at center(heard in interview).
3. Colangelo agrees he needs to be taught the low-post game(i.e. become a player he's not).
4. This is the nba, players have to keep their confidence and work themselves out of slumps. They dont' get handed minutes when they don't deserve them.

I'm not saying he's a bust, but he's in a major slump and he's to blame..not Sam. Sam has to do what he can to win games... if a player isnt' doing his part, there are 14 others.
Well it sounds to me that you have nevered played the game at a higher level and you don't follow the Raptors or understand how mitchell utilizes his guys. Go back to the start of the season and see where was our Bargs. To simplify things for you here are the box scores Bargnani, Raptors hold off late rally to beat Sixers http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271031028 and Andrea Bargnani scored 21 points Friday night to lead Toronto to a 106-69 victory over New jersey in the first meeting between the teams since the Nets ousted the Raptors in the opening round of last season's playoffs http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271102017 , well next game we play the celtics and we lose, both Bosh and Bargs had horrible shooting nights however both these guys lead the team on rebounds.http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271104 Next up were the Bucks and we get smoked Bosh was just horrible see the stats line on Bosh and then look at Bargs stats line. Now are you still with me next game Bargs puts up good numbers both in shooting and on the glass http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271107028 however we lose the game so is it Bargs fault.This is where it starts to fall apart for Bargs and Mitch starts playing mind games with his players. You had a top prospect who arguebly started the season better then Bosh but because we lost a few games instead of coaching his way out of it he started to play musical chairs with his guys. REMEMBER, THE FAMOUS LINE YOU EARN YOUR PLAYING TIME TO BECOME A STARTER,......well you don't hear it any more, do you think his players really believe that line of crap. Any way at this time things start to change for Bargs...was he playing bad..the anwer was no unless MITCH WAS LYING TO ALL OF US, remember the line that infuriated alot of fans," Bargs to the bench to help out RASHO" wow you play good and you go to the bench you play poorly and you get to start. You come out of no where and in some cases out of street clothes and you start.This is where it all started to go down hill with Bargs any mistake he made he was on the bench. Folks if he jerked Ford over his mistakes TJ would never start again. Ever try to play where you know if you make a mistake you find your ass on the bench, you just can't play that way especially when you know others can get away it. Is the young Bargs messed right now well the answer is yes, is it all his fault the answer is no.Does Bargs have to keep working hard to find it again the answer is yes because Mitch will not do anything right to help his #1 get to the next level... all of us thought after the first few games he was on his way to the top unfortunately for Bargs he has hit a wall made of MITCH.
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Old 12-17-2007, 02:51 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Well it sounds to me that you have nevered played the game at a higher level and you don't follow the Raptors or understand how mitchell utilizes his guys. Go back to the start of the season and see where was our Bargs. To simplify things for you here are the box scores Bargnani, Raptors hold off late rally to beat Sixers http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271031028 and Andrea Bargnani scored 21 points Friday night to lead Toronto to a 106-69 victory over New jersey in the first meeting between the teams since the Nets ousted the Raptors in the opening round of last season's playoffs http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271102017 , well next game we play the celtics and we lose, both Bosh and Bargs had horrible shooting nights however both these guys lead the team on rebounds.http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271104 Next up were the Bucks and we get smoked Bosh was just horrible see the stats line on Bosh and then look at Bargs stats line. Now are you still with me next game Bargs puts up good numbers both in shooting and on the glass http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=271107028 however we lose the game so is it Bargs fault.This is where it starts to fall apart for Bargs and Mitch starts playing mind games with his players. You had a top prospect who arguebly started the season better then Bosh but because we lost a few games instead of coaching his way out of it he started to play musical chairs with his guys. REMEMBER, THE FAMOUS LINE YOU EARN YOUR PLAYING TIME TO BECOME A STARTER,......well you don't hear it any more, do you think his players really believe that line of crap. Any way at this time things start to change for Bargs...was he playing bad..the anwer was no unless MITCH WAS LYING TO ALL OF US, remember the line that infuriated alot of fans," Bargs to the bench to help out RASHO" wow you play good and you go to the bench you play poorly and you get to start. You come out of no where and in some cases out of street clothes and you start.This is where it all started to go down hill with Bargs any mistake he made he was on the bench. Folks if he jerked Ford over his mistakes TJ would never start again. Ever try to play where you know if you make a mistake you find your ass on the bench, you just can't play that way especially when you know others can get away it. Is the young Bargs messed right now well the answer is yes, is it all his fault the answer is no.Does Bargs have to keep working hard to find it again the answer is yes because Mitch will not do anything right to help his #1 get to the next level... all of us thought after the first few games he was on his way to the top unfortunately for Bargs he has hit a wall made of MITCH.
It sounds to me like you listen to a certain guy ... nah nevermind

I completely disagree and accept your apology for insinuating I don't follow the Raptors as much as you do and i'll do my best to use real grammar and sentence structure in my reply.

You're showing individual statlines in box scores to illustrate how players deserve minutes and which ones don't? I'm sorry but the game at a higher level goes way beyond box scores. I'm not suggesting Sam is a master of rotations but he did coach a new team to overachieve to a 47 win season last year despite several key injuries so i'm going to give him some props for getting the best out of his team and finding ways to win. Players earn minutes for their work on the court and in practice.. and neither has anything to do with stats. Also you have to consider a few other things..

1. What's best for the team. The boston game, the bucks game and the magic game showed us how poorly the team was getting out of the gate. Putting Rasho in the starting lineup was as much about getting the team the right look it needed to set a defensive tone, which would establish the offence as it did utilizing Rasho.

2. YOu're quoting Sam's interviews to the media which is hardly representative of what goes on to lead to a rotational decision. Please...you and I both know he despises the media and will say whatever he can to get off the podium!

This team can't win without Bosh, except against weaker or weakened teams... but we can win without Bargnani so yes he is likely to get the hook earlier when he makes mistakes...but in fairness he makes more mistakes than Bosh as well. Bargnani has struggled this year adapting to his new position and his confidence is gone... he looks overwhelmed when he's on the court and because of that he sits more than last year. I dont' want to see us lose games while he tries to figure himself out..he's got to man up and deal with his confidence problem, make a statement when he does get on the court that makes it impossible for Sam to pull him. Until then...Sam is doing what he should...trying to win games with the guys that are bringing it right now. There might be some fans that are willing to sacrifice this season for Bargnani's growth and that's fine, but a lot of us aren't. We want playoffs every year and I personally dont' care which of our 15 guys are on the court taking us there.
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Old 12-17-2007, 03:48 PM   #26 (permalink)
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"I completely disagree and accept your apology for insinuating I don't follow the Raptors as much as you do and i'll do my best to use real grammar and sentence structure in my reply."

Hey no problem, please don't take this personally remember this is a message board and as much as I love the rapts I enjoy having fun on this board. So please cheer up.

I agree with you that stats is not everything, however, I do strongly believe that Mitch is playing mind games with Bargs. Bargs has alot of upside,I agree he needs to get better in the low post but why take away what he does well. Bargs must go back and work on the outside, establish his game get his touches early and work on his strengths. He will get his touches in the low post but why force that issue all the time and completely eliminate his perimeter game. When was the last time he was taking shots from the top of the key ?? When was the last time he was seen driving hard to the basket from the 3 point line ? Anyway this is my personal opinion,....I really believe that Bargs is a big piece of the puzzle for the rapts to get to the next level.
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:10 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I agree with you that stats is not everything, however, I do strongly believe that Mitch is playing mind games with Bargs. Bargs has alot of upside,I agree he needs to get better in the low post but why take away what he does well. Bargs must go back and work on the outside, establish his game get his touches early and work on his strengths. He will get his touches in the low post but why force that issue all the time and completely eliminate his perimeter game. When was the last time he was taking shots from the top of the key ?? When was the last time he was seen driving hard to the basket from the 3 point line ? Anyway this is my personal opinion,....I really believe that Bargs is a big piece of the puzzle for the rapts to get to the next level.
I agree totally with this... i guess I dont' think it's purely Sam's fault either. If he thought it would win him games he'd call those plays. I think Andrea is genuinely unsure of himself and just isn't making good decisions. I am willing to accept that perhaps if he'd stayed in the starting lineup from the beginning of the season, maybe he'd not be so bad off now, but i really think it was best for the team that Rasho starts now...this season. Rasho is a big piece for us..he does so many things well to help set the tone defensively in games... Andrea doesnt' give that... I see Andrea as a 6th man type like last year... have him spell Rasho. The problem has been that he hasn't showed any consistancy when he gets on the court and I believe it's his responsibility to deal with the minutes he's given and use them to earn more...not use inconsistant minutes as an excuse for losing his confidence like some people are suggesting. That's my opinion. I really want to see him succeed and i think he'sa big part of our future... but i want to win games now too and he's not helping in that regard at the moment.
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:35 PM   #28 (permalink)
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At this point Bargo is giving us about the same as Haffa did... Raps need to help him improve his game... he needs more minutes and better matchups...
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Old 12-17-2007, 04:43 PM   #29 (permalink)
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At this point Bargo is giving us about the same as Haffa did... Raps need to help him improve his game... he needs more minutes and better matchups...
I'm sure he's getting a lot of attention by the coaching staff and players in practice... and it's not like he's sent out there with a 5 minute leash... he's put on the court and gets yanked if he's making mistakes. The more you leave him out there to struggle through it the more games we lose and the harder it is to make the playoffs...both of which are important things to the development of the entire franchise. Let's not put one player ahead of the rest of the team... you know what happened the last time we coddled a player(ahem wince) dont' you?
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Old 12-17-2007, 05:27 PM   #30 (permalink)
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But if Bargo is the 'future' what is more important.... winning few more games this season or getting him to achieve his full potential soon?
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Old 12-17-2007, 06:39 PM   #31 (permalink)
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The bottom line Bargs must play. He must get minutes, the guy can play he has shown it, we all know its there. Again, I must say that what we are seeing from Bargs is what Mitch wants, we are not seeing the real Bargs.
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:52 AM   #32 (permalink)
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But if Bargo is the 'future' what is more important.... winning few more games this season or getting him to achieve his full potential soon?

Those few games could cost us the playoffs, which costs the entire team valueable growth and experience... so my answer is the team comes first. Straightening out Bargnani is a big deal but not at the expense of the development of the team.

Be honest..what would you rather see by seasons end. Andrea Bargnani averaging 15 and 8 with some decent post game and the team finishing below 500 and missing the playoffs... or the Raptors challenging for 50 wins and a decent shot at the second round?

I take the latter and I think when healthy even with AB struggling we have the team to do it this year.
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Old 12-18-2007, 10:40 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Those few games could cost us the playoffs, which costs the entire team valueable growth and experience... so my answer is the team comes first. Straightening out Bargnani is a big deal but not at the expense of the development of the team.

Be honest..what would you rather see by seasons end. Andrea Bargnani averaging 15 and 8 with some decent post game and the team finishing below 500 and missing the playoffs... or the Raptors challenging for 50 wins and a decent shot at the second round?

I take the latter and I think when healthy even with AB struggling we have the team to do it this year.
Bargnani or not... two things are for certain...

1. Raps will make playoffs
2. Raps will not go more then 1 round in

There is no way in hell Raps finish 1st in Atlantic thus they cannot be higher then 4th in post season... it means that, if they pass 1st round, they would meet Boston in the 2nd round... unless they pull Nancy Kerrigan on KG's knee they lose to Boston...
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Old 12-18-2007, 11:01 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Bargnani or not... two things are for certain...

1. Raps will make playoffs
2. Raps will not go more then 1 round in

There is no way in hell Raps finish 1st in Atlantic thus they cannot be higher then 4th in post season... it means that, if they pass 1st round, they would meet Boston in the 2nd round... unless they pull Nancy Kerrigan on KG's knee they lose to Boston...
Making it to the second round will be a success for this team though...failing to make the playoffs...a huge step backwards.

They won't make the playoffs if they dont' try to win every game though...the east is all over the place..sure we're in 5th now but Chicago is starting to play and they're not currently in the top 8, nor is Cleveland which you know will be there.....that means a couple teams currently in the top 8 must fall. I dont' think we're a lock by any means. If we get healthy and stay healthy and Sam keeps coaching to win every game despite the future development of AB we should make it.
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Old 12-18-2007, 12:01 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Making it to the second round will be a success for this team though...failing to make the playoffs...a huge step backwards.

They won't make the playoffs if they dont' try to win every game though...the east is all over the place..sure we're in 5th now but Chicago is starting to play and they're not currently in the top 8, nor is Cleveland which you know will be there.....that means a couple teams currently in the top 8 must fall. I dont' think we're a lock by any means. If we get healthy and stay healthy and Sam keeps coaching to win every game despite the future development of AB we should make it.
Raps will make the playoffs... for sure... right now they are 5th... 0 games behind Wizards (they won and lost 1 game less then Raps) and 9th team is Philly with 3.5 games behind Raps... only question is where will they be... IMHO they'll finish 5th and will get to play Cleavland (yes, I do expect them to finish 4th)...
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