Bargnani's new found super effort on D - Page 2
Old 10-18-2012, 11:20 PM   #21 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

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nope probably not. Bargs is awesome, he never does anything wrong.
yeah, and lowry's going to win all nba first team honours this season, along with DPY award, and take us to a championship.

give it a rest
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:21 PM   #22 (permalink)
is praying Ross makes us forget Drummond so people stop whining

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yeah, and lowry's going to win all nba first team honours this season, along with DPY award, and take us to a championship.

give it a rest
That's it put down another player because that helps. lol

Last edited by jeffb; 10-18-2012 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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disgusting, he better be more agressive in the season
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:45 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Hes looked like Boozer on D so far in the preseaso and thats being nice. Hopefully hes ready on day 1.

Like I said in the 1st gamethread, I have no idea why theyre making him hedge hard, because he has no idea what hes doing, and he doesnt put forth the hustle to get back to his man(not that his hedging actually stops the ballhandler anyway). Hes basically in no mans land on screen roll. Its amazing how much better Val has looked than Bargs with his pick and roll defence.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:08 AM   #25 (permalink)
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That's it put down another player because that helps. lol
I was just bringing up lowry because of his love of lowry and how he calls lowry the best player on this team.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:09 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Andrea hedged hard last season. It worked, because it wasn't expected, and teams likely wanted to start the offense by turning the corner on Jose a lot of the time. It was only a matter of time before teams started looking for it and making the easy pass or timing the drive accordingly. I think they had to get away from it already when he came back from injury.

That's the other thing - all the legwork he does on the hedging and scrambling back can't help those calves. In any case if he were to just show hedge he would likely often get stuck in his favoured no-man's land where he has a terrible time tracking his man and the ball and deciding what to do. By hedging hard and scrambling back, he plays with some sense of direction and doesn't need to react so much. He at least has some impact. Personally, I never saw it as sustainable. But there is the chance that by moving his feet he develops some momentum and a sense of reacting properly. There were some signs of that in his best games last season, but then the offences he faced were pretty rudimentary. I just think there's likely a definitive ceiling with him as a starter.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:09 AM   #27 (permalink)
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I was just bringing up lowry because of his love of lowry and how he calls lowry the best player on this team.
He probably is.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:11 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Klo plays like he is
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:20 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I was just bringing up lowry because of his love of lowry and how he calls lowry the best player on this team.
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He probably is.
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Klo plays like he is
so apparently I have a love of lowry because I say he's the best player on the raps.

Also,

"both 82games.com and NBA.com's stat tool confirm what any eyeball test suggests, showing that Toronto has allowed fewer points-per-100 with him off the court than on it in every season since 2007-08."

Last edited by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!!; 10-19-2012 at 12:26 AM.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:47 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Interesting choice of Music Moujik...

The guy that irritates the hell out of me with every single one of his posts, and he plays that melo country, I don't even know what category that even is.

I would have thought he'd play some heavy metal or goth music with diabolical lyrics.

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Old 10-19-2012, 01:56 AM   #31 (permalink)
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another thing entirely to simply be at least a half step slow, or completely lost much of the time when facing anything beyond a rudimentary offensive set.
Ok, just because this is the type of thing that gets my goat...

Please do back up what you just said, and then afterwards, please fill me in on your hands on experience with all things "rudimentary". Are we calling a Pick and roll "rudimentary? Cuz most teams struggle stopping one....

I sometimes wonder, well often, why people think they know what happening out there. Hell I know I don't always follow everything, but to be honest, its pretty much never that I read a post on here from someone who actually can completely explain what they are seeing.

The dude is slow on the uptake, I agree, but whats going on out there is anything but rudimentary, trust me, everything looks easy from your armchair at home.

So basically, it's not that I disagree that Bargnani can be a stiff, thats obvious, what I can't quite get on board with is people saying this shit from a position of self imposed expertise.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:58 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Yawn......
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:06 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I have no idea why theyre making him hedge hard, because he has no idea what hes doing, and he doesnt put forth the hustle to get back to his man(not that his hedging actually stops the ballhandler anyway). .
Who told you that? Wh9o told you ha has no idea what he's doing? Is that all you thriller, are you smarter than Andrea Bargnani at basketball? Do you see the floor better, understand the in's and outs of the NBA game? I mean cool if you do, I can respect that, I just wonder how you got so damned smart.

Honestly guys, ya gotta stop posting shit that makes it look like you're the Shaolin grand master of basketball execution. A statement closer to, "Bargnani doesn't seem to react as fast as a lot of his peers on certain plays" makes way more sense. Saying he has no idea is a pretty huge gaff coming from people that know much less. I don't think any of us are qualified to say we know more about the game than men in the NBA.

Maybe we can call out a lazy player, you can usually see that, maybe we can call out clumsy guys, but upstairs, actual knowledge?? I dont think so.

Further to that, Bargnani actually does a great job of getting out high on the PG. In a few of those sequences, Lowry actually stayed with the PG AND Bargnani when Bargnani did what he ha s been asked to do, what that did was create a really large gap which is hard to cover. I admit he looked bad effort wise getting back a few time, but methinks there is a little more going on there than you guys are seeing...i.e. when a big rotates out on a pick and roll, there has to be a bottom rotation, and then fast feet ALL around...on a bunch of those that I SAW, there was ZERO rotation at all.

So yeah, he' can be slow, and yeah, at times his lazy, but he isnt stupid, and yes, he get sin the way VERY well when he's up top...his job is to hinder, not stop.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:06 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Yawn......
Tired?

Please do enlighten me.... you have been here a while, once would be nice.

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Old 10-19-2012, 08:12 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Ok, just because this is the type of thing that gets my goat...

Please do back up what you just said, and then afterwards, please fill me in on your hands on experience with all things "rudimentary". Are we calling a Pick and roll "rudimentary? Cuz most teams struggle stopping one....

I sometimes wonder, well often, why people think they know what happening out there. Hell I know I don't always follow everything, but to be honest, its pretty much never that I read a post on here from someone who actually can completely explain what they are seeing.

The dude is slow on the uptake, I agree, but whats going on out there is anything but rudimentary, trust me, everything looks easy from your armchair at home.

So basically, it's not that I disagree that Bargnani can be a stiff, thats obvious, what I can't quite get on board with is people saying this shit from a position of self imposed expertise.
By rudimentary I meant teams that can run plays, including the pick and roll, without the greatest level of exploring and exploiting all options. Believe it or not, people who have watched the game for 40 years can see some things out there. I have no issue with the difficulty involved with stopping even the most basic and plodding pick and roll situations. My issue has always been with being a weak link that gets exploited due to poor or no reactions.

I agree with you that he does some pretty good work out on the perimeter, and that he is solid as the main on the ball defender. But he's not typically the guy that causes problems for an offense to execute from start to finish. There are too many letdowns, including with rebounding as a result of poor positioning, coming more from not being able to apply consistent effort than from making a mistake here and there. I could be wrong, but what I have seen for six years, and his being taken out for defensive purposes at the end of games might back up, is more of an inability to make decisions in a timely manner than the making of any wrong decision.

And his whole routine of hedging hard is mostly just a bandaid to get him involved in a team defense at some level that does not require any great level of reacting. When I see him showing and recovering rather than full on hedging due to recognizing what might be developing, then it will mark some real progress. I won't hold my breath.
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Old 10-19-2012, 08:18 AM   #36 (permalink)
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And finally, I see what I see SJ. I post that honestly. You want to suggest I have an agenda to promote my "self-imposed expertise" whatever the fuck that is supposed to mean? I think that's bullshit, and petty bullshit, and unnecessary. Talk fucking ball man, instead of trying to restrict others from doing so. Agree with an honest viewpoint, or present your own. If something is not a complete explanation, then maybe you can fill in the gaps one way or the other. beyond forty years of watching, that is another way i have learned to see the game. How hard is that?

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Old 10-19-2012, 11:05 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Interesting choice of Music Moujik...

The guy that irritates the hell out of me with every single one of his posts, and he plays that melo country, I don't even know what category that even is.

I would have thought he'd play some heavy metal or goth music with diabolical lyrics.
Bargnani provided the diabolical, so the music didn't have to hit you as hard

p.s. "melo country", heavy metal and goth is all the same shit to me
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:10 AM   #38 (permalink)
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When did I ever say I was smarter than Andrea at basketball? Do you ever not try to attack posters or prove your point with your 'you didnt play ball, or at as high of a level as these guys so you cant have an opinion' shtick? Watch the damn game. He was giving up layups to Jan fucking Vesley because he was either getting lost in getting back to his man, or he was jogging. It happened multple times, and its happened multiple times in the other games as well. Its a combination of him getting lost in having to turn back around and quickly find his rotation, and at times, just not trying hard enough to get there. I dont think thats disputable.

If you watch Val hedge, he stays back and uses his length to cut off the ballhandler and penetration, and often leads the ballhandler in to the Raptors guard closest to the play so he can help as well.

I just dont understand why we're having Bargs trying to be KG out there when he's clearly incapable of consistently playing the screen roll correctly. We're giving up far too many easy shots in the paint because he's in no mans land. It's not only a knock on Bargs, but on the coaching staff, because if they cant recognize that his hard hedging is our biggest weakness on screen roll, then they're in for a rude awakening when we play teams with very good to great pick and roll PGs, and theres a lot of them.
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Old 10-19-2012, 11:12 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I noticed AB's hedging trick in the beginning of last season as well, but sometimes he forgets that if he lingers by the logo a bit longer, it will look like somebody else should defend his player, and he doesn't have to recover at all. I've nothing against AB personally, I'm just tired of all the bullshit about his defensive improvement and focus. They might sell it to some (well most, cause no one watches TO) of NBA experts, but don't try to feed it to people who watch every Raptors game in full!
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:36 PM   #40 (permalink)
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Not sure about one thing. Sometimes you see him going out hedging (and we all agree is not that good at it) but then I don't see the rest of the defence rotating or doing it poorly.
They do at 0:30 and that looks a normal situation.
At 0:40 DeMar (I think is him) is following the cutter and the paint is protected by Val and Bargs is out covering the possible pass to the men at the top. In that situation if he follows he's wrong because leaves an open man, if he stays he's wrong because should have doubled?
0:51 he's just slow, on offence...
1:03 defence rotates and his man is perfectly covered by Val.
1:10 He has to cover opponent PG as he has beaten our guard, defence rotates and a mismatch in the paint.
1:28 that's not his man, which he's covering and boxing out.
1:36 same as 1:10
1:47 he hedges and defence doesn't rotate.

Some were simply brutal and I agree. He's generally very slow moving and reacting during these few games, but in general I see a lack of organization by the entire defence and he's clearly not the one who can make it straight.
He's barely able to do his own part, if you ask him to think for all the others on the court that's what you get.
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