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-   -   Bargnani vs Nowitzki.... the stats. (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/bargnani-vs-nowitzki-stats-19573.html)

foreverice 03-03-2011 03:39 AM

Bargnani vs Nowitzki.... the stats.
 
What are you looking for Toronto?

I find it really interesting how there seems to be so many people aboard the trade Bargnani train. I've read other forums and people talk about him as possibly a good 6th man. (That might be true down the line...) But lets look at some stats.
(Per game) POINTS | REBOUNDS | ASSISTS | BLOCKS | FG% | 3PT % | Turnovers
Bargnani - 21.8 | 5.5 | 1.7 | 0.7 | 0.454 | 0.330 | 2.5
Nowizki - 22.8 | 6.7 | 2.5 | 0.7 | 0.525 | 0.424 | 1.94

Now this isn't saying that they're even close to the same skill level...yet, but considering Bagnani hasn't been the focal point till this year, and is still getting use to the double and triple teams... I think offensively he's doing quite well. Specially since unlike Dallas, Bagnani doesn't really have anyone to take any of the focus away from him yet. (Though DeRozen is looking to be that strong candidate.) And lets face it, as long as they keep running plays for him on the perimeter and don't use him more down low (this is the coaches fault... they like that high starting position in the post, they did it with Bosh too.) He's going to continue to be out of position for rebounds.

Bargnani (unless he hires some kind of fitness guru to work on it with him.) will never be an outstanding defensive player.... however, he's shown moments of fight down there... and people really don't get that when someone like Derick Rose slips in behind the Defence and score on Bargnani... it's not necessarily his fault... the guys covering your point, shooting guard, and power forward positions let those guys get bye them in the first place.

Last words on Bargnani... to whom I still have hopes. If he can show more of the fight that I've seen sparks of lately from him on defence... I think he'll be ok. (Better than Bosh was at least... if only because of his height.)

James Johnson can keep his guy in front of him... which means less of Bargnani trying to defend 2 players. Not only that the fact that Johnson & Johnson are playing together take the rebounding pressure off of him a bit. It's tough being double and triple teamed on offence and then asked to go and guard the other teams big guy. (Garnet, Duncan, Gasol...etc.)

P.S. Seriously... there's not that many people out there that can score 20 points as easily as Bargnani can. He's just got to get that FG% up... and that'll come with maturity. Dirks 4th year in he was only at 0.477 FG% and 0.397 3pt% ... Pretty close to what Bargnani has right now and once again... his team was loaded with guns for hire via Mark Cuban. Not young... guns. (I know ... wha wha... )

finstock 03-03-2011 04:10 AM

Dirk is a hall of famer. Bargs, on the other hand, will likely be remembered most for what he achieved before stepping on an NBA court, being selected 1st overall, rather than his play on it.

foreverice 03-03-2011 05:23 AM

Most likely you're right... but Dirk wasn't a hall of fame even by the 5th year of his career.

There's tonnes of #1 picks who had really good NBA Basketball careers who never became Hall of famers and some still playing who probably won't either (Derrick Coleman, Larry Johnson, Chris Webber(not a lock) , Allen Iverson (not a lock), Kenyon Martin, Yao Ming, Elton Brand... I can go on.... )

but needless to say, not every person that steps into the NBA is a superstar... sometimes they're just your average All-Stars (Vince Carter, Chris Bosh, Billups, Shaun Marion, Antoine Walker. yada yada) ... not the Elites. (I.E. Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Wilt Chamberlain, Lebron, early Shaq, & Wade )

I do think Barnani... is better than a bunch of recent #1's Bigs at least... (Kwame Brone, Andrew Bogut, Yao Ming and Greg Oden.. think how Portland & Houston must feel.... at least Andrea, is capable of playing in more than 10 games a season.)

Rimpianto 03-03-2011 05:30 AM

I would love to se Bargs reach Dirk level, but right now I think he's more on a Rasheed level.

Carlito 03-03-2011 06:26 AM

I agree with your post.
The only question is whether he can demonstrate consistent effort /aggression to be a starter ... I've also noticed over the last couple of games an increased intensity on both ends of the court. If he can continue to progress in this area ... no reason he can't achieve all star status .. don't believe he will ever be at Dirk's level - hope I'm wrong.

LX 03-03-2011 06:57 AM

When Dirk spends most of an entire month shooting under 40 percent, and being completely lost on defense (I know - it's hard), get back to me.

Deez 03-03-2011 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 515880)
When Dirk spends most of an entire month shooting under 40 percent, and being completely lost on defense (I know - it's hard), get back to me.

Oooh. It hurts because it's true.

Chiggmo 03-03-2011 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 515880)
When Dirk spends most of an entire month shooting under 40 percent, and being completely lost on defense (I know - it's hard), get back to me.

Or when Bargs learns how to play D and be consistant night in and night out, we can try again? Kind of the reverse of what your sayin :P

TORaptor4Ever 03-03-2011 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rimpianto (Post 515876)
I would love to se Bargs reach Dirk level, but right now I think he's more on a Rasheed level.

Sheed would beat you senseless if he ever heard you say that.

For almost all of his career Rasheed Wallace was a premiere defender at the PF position and could score inside and out against pretty much anyone.

Bargs has a LONG, long way to go before he's even mentioned in the same breath as a guy like that...... let alone Dirk.

Aar_Canada 03-03-2011 08:56 AM

Andrea's on a shit team and has been most of his NBA career.

MikeToronto 03-03-2011 10:00 AM

Offensively, with a little more consistency, Bargnani could be mentioned in the same sentence as Dirk or Bosh. The problems with him are all on the defensive end of the floor, and there they appear to be of a mental nature. I still have a lingering hope that Bargnani is a good/right coach away from being a premier two-way big.

b55bgc 03-03-2011 10:10 AM

when you have amir, davis and johnson bringing it every night. Barganani lack of help defense will not be noticed. He is a pretty good one on one defender.
Defense is a team skill for the most part, if one person doesnt put in the effort, it makes all of them look bad.

His style of play doesnt allow him to be getting rebounds. He is rarely under the net for that matter.

People need to realize that aint what he is out there to do. For the most part BArgnani rivals most of the centres in the league. Toronto just needs a full size big on the bench to rival the few teams that have a huge centre under the basket.

m5racer 03-03-2011 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneironaught (Post 515871)
Dirk is a hall of famer. Bargs, on the other hand, will likely be remembered most for what he achieved before stepping on an NBA court, being selected 1st overall, rather than his play on it.

Your right, and Dirk can be remembered for all those failed, failed FAILED playoff runs......remember a few years back when dallas was 1st in regualr season and then the playoffs roll around and they are out in the first round, in 4 games i believe........ oh all the things dirk has done, and the rebounding, hes a beast at 6.7!! What what! .....

leftcoastbballfan 03-03-2011 10:24 AM

Dirk is the man on a winning basketball team........Andre is the man on a team that doesn't.

jeffb 03-03-2011 10:29 AM

So......a 25yr old player is playing under the level of a 30yr old future HOF and former MVP.

And there are a few things that also need to be looked at, Nowitzki takes 3 less shots per game then Bargnani therefore on less shots he's averaging more PPG on a much more talented team. If Bargnani had that talent around him he'd be lucky to average 18ppg. Also, defense.....Dirk is no great defender but he's better then Bargnani. This comparing these two players seriously has to stop. Hell, Nowitzki's shooting %, let alone his consistency/effort/competitivness puts him on a whole other level. Bargnani will never be on the level of a Dirk Nowitzki, he doesn't have it in him as a competitor.

creative1mm 03-03-2011 10:35 AM

the funny thing is.. if raptors were actually winning games this year and top 5 team in the league, then the comparison would be way more closer

EggsToTheBBQ 03-03-2011 10:37 AM

Dirk scores far more efficiently than Bargs and he's a far superior rebounder if you look at his career numbers. Also, I don't feel that Dallas is particularly strong without Dirk. His impact on a successful team is undeniable, something that Bargs has never achieved.

I'm not a big fan of player comparisons in general. This particular comparison comes up a lot, but Dirk is a much higher quality player than Bargnani has ever shown to be. Bargs still has room to grow, though. Perhaps a fairer comparison would be Antoine Walker. Walker gives up a little to Bargs in terms of offensive efficiency, but he was a better rebounder. I would put Bargs on the same level as Antoine Walker.

I don't think that Bargs has had his breakout season yet. I have been saying for a number of years now that Bargs will show up to training camp one season looking in great shape, and that will be his breakout season. I haven't seen his conditioning improve much if any since his rookie season. He really doesn't have the body of a successful NBA PF.

jeffb 03-03-2011 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creative1mm (Post 515906)
the funny thing is.. if raptors were actually winning games this year and top 5 team in the league, then the comparison would be way more closer

No it wouldn't, because if we were more talented Bargnani wouldn't be taking 18-19 shots per game and would be lucky to get 18ppg. Like i said, if Bargnani took the shots per game that Dirk did, he'd be in the 17-18ppg range, hense the lower shooting %.

carp 03-03-2011 10:45 AM

comparing Bargnani, an 8M player to Dirk, a max money guy, is only giving the haters an opportunity to hate again.

They're in two entirely different situations..... and for those suggesting AB as the man that leads a team nowhere is an indictment of his talent, why are they the same ones calling Bosh an elite PF?

Fans overrate their faves, bash the guys they don't like.... and it seems very few have the patience to stick with a team through a rebuilding process. Why the incessant need to scapegoat one player?

carp 03-03-2011 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 515908)
No it wouldn't, because if we were more talented Bargnani wouldn't be taking 18-19 shots per game and would be lucky to get 18ppg. Like i said, if Bargnani took the shots per game that Dirk did, he'd be in the 17-18ppg range, hense the lower shooting %.

you're talking like you're in a vacuum.... it isn't as linear as you suggest.

jeffb 03-03-2011 10:52 AM

Dirk plays less minutes, takes less shots, is 7yrs older and is averaging a better shooting %, better RPG, better PPG, less TO.........he's a lot better.

And the one thing in the title of this thread that is telling is "the stats". We all like to look at stats to see where players stand, but who effects games more, who is more competitive, who is better defensively? I'll say it again, Bargnani will never......ever be on Dirk's level. He doesn't have it in him and he's a marshmellow.

carp 03-03-2011 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 515914)
Dirk plays less minutes, takes less shots, is 7yrs older and is averaging a better shooting %, better RPG, better PPG, less TO.........he's a lot better.

And the one thing in the title of this thread that is telling is "the stats". We all like to look at stats to see where players stand, but who effects games more, who is more competitive, who is better defensively? I'll say it again, Bargnani will never......ever be on Dirk's level. He doesn't have it in him and he's a marshmellow.

Your point is pointless.... why feel like you have to repeat it so much? It's obvious. AB won't be as good as Dirk.... not many are. We haven't had a player near Dirk's level since Vince.

AB makes 8M.... less than half of Dirk..... less than half. Why are we even bothering with this. Do Atlanta fans bitch that Horford will never be as good as Dwght? Do memphis fans hate Marc cause Pau is better?

Hey, you're a donkey, I like that. You like apples, right? I'm Mark Wahlberg, say hi to you mother.

Superjudge 03-03-2011 12:27 PM

Look, it's Marky mark!!!!

Barracuda 03-03-2011 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 515917)
Your point is pointless.... why feel like you have to repeat it so much? It's obvious. AB won't be as good as Dirk.... not many are. We haven't had a player near Dirk's level since Vince.

AB makes 8M.... less than half of Dirk..... less than half. Why are we even bothering with this. Do Atlanta fans bitch that Horford will never be as good as Dwght? Do memphis fans hate Marc cause Pau is better?

Hey, you're a donkey, I like that. You like apples, right? I'm Mark Wahlberg, say hi to you mother.

Word to your mother, even.

foreverice 03-03-2011 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 515908)
No it wouldn't, because if we were more talented Bargnani wouldn't be taking 18-19 shots per game and would be lucky to get 18ppg. Like i said, if Bargnani took the shots per game that Dirk did, he'd be in the 17-18ppg range, hense the lower shooting %.

Yeah.... um... I'm going to have to disagree with this statement here. ( I know what you're saying though.)

Your entire argument is pretty much based on field goal percentage. But, with someone else who demanded attention (i.e. A double team... or at least a second glance) playing with Bargnani, it would open up way more space. Less ball pressure equals a higher percentage. (Besides once again... look at Dirks early shooting percentage. It's pretty comparable. And he still had a better team than the Raptors do currently.)

Now defensively though you're totally right... no comparison Dirks had better numbers over his career.

However anyone who's played sports can tell you that riding the pine your first couple years in a sport can shake your confidence...(Especially for Euro players, who don't have the swagger of their American Counterparts.) and that's what happened to Bargnani his first couple years. He didn't have the luxury of a Dirk, or Bosh or DeRozen for that matter, and got the starts regularly. (despite irregular play.)

I still think there's a higher upside for keeping Bargnani than trading him. (Unless you can get someone that's a legitimate super-star.) I'd take Bargnani over 90% of the bigs in the league right now. Seriously? Who's that amazing Center dominating the NBA right now? (Dwight Howard? His lack of underfire shooting makes him not reliable. Though he can dunk from anywhere.)

Old Shaq was good.. but he's way past his prime. Actually, there's not really a single Center out there right now, who's a dominator? (Most of the talent are the Power forwards.) Duncan's old, Yao's injured, Noah is a rebounding genius... but not reliable as a scorer. Kevin Love and Blake Griffin are talented but niether of them are Center's.

I've actually seen people post saying they'd trade him for Brook Lopez ... WHA??? Hey I'd take Bargnani's 21 points and 5.5 rebounds over Lopez's 19.5 points and 5.9 rebounds any day.

All I'm saying is... Let's use our heads a tad before we get on the get rid of Bagnani train. We could do way worse. Sure he's no Wilt the Stilt or Shaq. But he's still considered by most Annalists to be a top 10 Center. (he was even last year.. and he's having a better year this year.) (lol.... I know top 10 out of a possible 30 teams... lol)

bjjs 03-03-2011 01:04 PM

As long as the gunz believe in him, you stick with him.

halphbreedballer 03-03-2011 01:08 PM

All I know is if Bargs doesn't average 7+ rebounds or 25+ppg next season I say trade him at the deadline!!!

Because right now all he does is score & when he is off the Raptors struggle big time, because he provides nothing else!

This all depends on wins & losses of course.

jeffb 03-03-2011 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foreverice (Post 515962)
Yeah.... um... I'm going to have to disagree with this statement here. ( I know what you're saying though.)

Your entire argument is pretty much based on field goal percentage. But, with someone else who demanded attention (i.e. A double team... or at least a second glance) playing with Bargnani, it would open up way more space. Less ball pressure equals a higher percentage

He had that the 5 previous seasons. Look at his averages. My main point was he'd get less shots, and average less PPG. He averages more shots then Nowitzki and less PPG. If he averaged 3 less shots per game he'd average less then he currently does.

jeffb 03-03-2011 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halphbreedballer (Post 515967)
All I know is if Bargs doesn't average 7+ rebounds or 25+ppg next season I say trade him at the deadline!!!

Because right now all he does is score & when he is off the Raptors struggle big time, because he provides nothing else!

This all depends on wins & losses of course.

Then may as well trade is ass this summer because that ain't happening. He's a pussy and doesn't have the stones to get after it on a nightly basis.

carp 03-03-2011 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 515970)
He had that the 5 previous seasons. Look at his averages. My main point was he'd get less shots, and average less PPG. He averages more shots then Nowitzki and less PPG. If he averaged 3 less shots per game he'd average less then he currently does.

not necessarily true..... it depends on which three shots.... AB doesn't' hold back at the moment from shooting at any point, hence he is willing to take bad shots at the end of the clock that others may not be.... on a different team, he might not take those specific shots. Nothing is linear man.

carp 03-03-2011 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 515971)
Then may as well trade is ass this summer because that ain't happening. He's a pussy and doesn't have the stones to get after it on a nightly basis.

I can't stand this ridiculous hockey mentality.... "he's a pussy'.... it's so brutal, let's just get mensa-bonsu back and cut Bargnani then.....

jeffb 03-03-2011 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 515973)
I can't stand this ridiculous hockey mentality.... "he's a pussy'.... it's so brutal, let's just get mensa-bonsu back and cut Bargnani then.....

someone being a pussy is called hockey mentality? really, thought it was a universal expression for someone who's a pussy.

carp 03-03-2011 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 515978)
someone being a pussy is called hockey mentality? really, thought it was a universal expression for someone who's a pussy.

dude, you love Tie Domi... admit it. I can't stand how fans fall in love with minor-leagiue talent that only shows hustle. To prove I'm impartial, I fully support the Domi cause by getting all of my computers from Dash.... I get a great bargain too.

jeffb 03-03-2011 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 515979)
dude, you love Tie Domi... admit it. I can't stand how fans fall in love with minor-leagiue talent that only shows hustle. To prove I'm impartial, I fully support the Domi cause by getting all of my computers from Dash.... I get a great bargain too.

Hahhhhhh, i completely agree with that. When i watched hockey i couldn't stand it that fans loved Tie Dummy (cement head) and were not sold on players like Sundin. Goons always got more respect then skilled players, which is also one of the reasons Leaf fans have had shit teams.That always pissed me off, and is why i always said most leaf fans were not that bright when it came to the sport they claimed to love. Don't get me wrong, Bargnani is very skilled but as a center i believe he often lacks effort and seems uninterested and when he's having problems with his shot he rarely effects games in other areas, he's frustrating.

carp 03-03-2011 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 515982)
Hahhhhhh, i completely agree with that. When i watched hockey i couldn't stand it that fans loved Tie Dummy (cement head) and were not sold on players like Sundin. Goons always got more respect then skilled players, which is also one of the reasons Leaf fans have had shit teams.That always pissed me off, and is why i always said most leaf fans were not that bright when it came to the sport they claimed to love. Don't get me wrong, Bargnani is very skilled but as a center i believe he often lacks effort and seems uninterested and when he's having problems with his shot he rarely effects games in other areas, he's frustrating.

I'll agree, but anyone writitg him off like Thabeet is wrong. Just sayin.... We've seen alot of undersized hustle guys come and go, you'd think this fanbase would be a little more patient with a 7' 25 year old that can score 20 a game. Think about all of the following: Jalani McCoy , pape Sow, Mensah-bonsuh, humphries, Dorsey, Jawai, Archibald, Bonner, Maceo Baston..... I'm tired of watching undersized C's with little talent.

macs 03-03-2011 02:00 PM

You guys need to step away from the ledge.

Bargnani isn't going to be like Dirk. They're different.

Bargnani gets paid half of Dirk's salary, plays with shitty players, and has played in a losing culture his whole NBA life. He's not your team's superstar, but makes a hell of a 2nd or 3rd option.... and only gets paid $8-10M / year.

He's an affordable scorer for a team has a good defensive system. I wonder what he'd look like on Chicago playing alongside Boozer / Noah. He'd make a hell of a third big man.

finstock 03-03-2011 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m5racer (Post 515901)
Your right, and Dirk can be remembered for all those failed, failed FAILED playoff runs......remember a few years back when dallas was 1st in regualr season and then the playoffs roll around and they are out in the first round, in 4 games i believe........ oh all the things dirk has done, and the rebounding, hes a beast at 6.7!! What what! .....

I consider the Mavs the true champs of '06. They were royally screwed, in favor of a budding superstar in Wade, and Shaq.

Dirk moves like a ballerina. Bargs has the mindset of one.

finstock 03-03-2011 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macs (Post 515990)
You guys need to step away from the ledge.

Bargnani isn't going to be like Dirk. They're different.

Bargnani gets paid half of Dirk's salary, plays with shitty players, and has played in a losing culture his whole NBA life. He's not your team's superstar, but makes a hell of a 2nd or 3rd option.... and only gets paid $8-10M / year.

He's an affordable scorer for a team has a good defensive system. I wonder what he'd look like on Chicago playing alongside Boozer / Noah. He'd make a hell of a third big man.

+1. Now there's a very reasonable post.

MARTYNAS 03-03-2011 02:32 PM

Déjà vu?

Seriously, why? Why such a shitty threads exist? Compare Bargnani to Dirk... :D


Next thread? Antawn Jamison vs Pau Gasol ?

jrob23 03-03-2011 03:20 PM

Please don't even try and compare the two

Although if Bargnani played for an owner who cared about winning like Cuban does, then maybe this comparison would be at least somewhat valid.


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