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-   -   Bargnani vs Nowitzki.... the stats. (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/bargnani-vs-nowitzki-stats-19573.html)

foreverice 03-03-2011 03:39 AM

Bargnani vs Nowitzki.... the stats.
 
What are you looking for Toronto?

I find it really interesting how there seems to be so many people aboard the trade Bargnani train. I've read other forums and people talk about him as possibly a good 6th man. (That might be true down the line...) But lets look at some stats.
(Per game) POINTS | REBOUNDS | ASSISTS | BLOCKS | FG% | 3PT % | Turnovers
Bargnani - 21.8 | 5.5 | 1.7 | 0.7 | 0.454 | 0.330 | 2.5
Nowizki - 22.8 | 6.7 | 2.5 | 0.7 | 0.525 | 0.424 | 1.94

Now this isn't saying that they're even close to the same skill level...yet, but considering Bagnani hasn't been the focal point till this year, and is still getting use to the double and triple teams... I think offensively he's doing quite well. Specially since unlike Dallas, Bagnani doesn't really have anyone to take any of the focus away from him yet. (Though DeRozen is looking to be that strong candidate.) And lets face it, as long as they keep running plays for him on the perimeter and don't use him more down low (this is the coaches fault... they like that high starting position in the post, they did it with Bosh too.) He's going to continue to be out of position for rebounds.

Bargnani (unless he hires some kind of fitness guru to work on it with him.) will never be an outstanding defensive player.... however, he's shown moments of fight down there... and people really don't get that when someone like Derick Rose slips in behind the Defence and score on Bargnani... it's not necessarily his fault... the guys covering your point, shooting guard, and power forward positions let those guys get bye them in the first place.

Last words on Bargnani... to whom I still have hopes. If he can show more of the fight that I've seen sparks of lately from him on defence... I think he'll be ok. (Better than Bosh was at least... if only because of his height.)

James Johnson can keep his guy in front of him... which means less of Bargnani trying to defend 2 players. Not only that the fact that Johnson & Johnson are playing together take the rebounding pressure off of him a bit. It's tough being double and triple teamed on offence and then asked to go and guard the other teams big guy. (Garnet, Duncan, Gasol...etc.)

P.S. Seriously... there's not that many people out there that can score 20 points as easily as Bargnani can. He's just got to get that FG% up... and that'll come with maturity. Dirks 4th year in he was only at 0.477 FG% and 0.397 3pt% ... Pretty close to what Bargnani has right now and once again... his team was loaded with guns for hire via Mark Cuban. Not young... guns. (I know ... wha wha... )

finstock 03-03-2011 04:10 AM

Dirk is a hall of famer. Bargs, on the other hand, will likely be remembered most for what he achieved before stepping on an NBA court, being selected 1st overall, rather than his play on it.

foreverice 03-03-2011 05:23 AM

Most likely you're right... but Dirk wasn't a hall of fame even by the 5th year of his career.

There's tonnes of #1 picks who had really good NBA Basketball careers who never became Hall of famers and some still playing who probably won't either (Derrick Coleman, Larry Johnson, Chris Webber(not a lock) , Allen Iverson (not a lock), Kenyon Martin, Yao Ming, Elton Brand... I can go on.... )

but needless to say, not every person that steps into the NBA is a superstar... sometimes they're just your average All-Stars (Vince Carter, Chris Bosh, Billups, Shaun Marion, Antoine Walker. yada yada) ... not the Elites. (I.E. Magic, Bird, Jordan, Kobe, Wilt Chamberlain, Lebron, early Shaq, & Wade )

I do think Barnani... is better than a bunch of recent #1's Bigs at least... (Kwame Brone, Andrew Bogut, Yao Ming and Greg Oden.. think how Portland & Houston must feel.... at least Andrea, is capable of playing in more than 10 games a season.)

Rimpianto 03-03-2011 05:30 AM

I would love to se Bargs reach Dirk level, but right now I think he's more on a Rasheed level.

Carlito 03-03-2011 06:26 AM

I agree with your post.
The only question is whether he can demonstrate consistent effort /aggression to be a starter ... I've also noticed over the last couple of games an increased intensity on both ends of the court. If he can continue to progress in this area ... no reason he can't achieve all star status .. don't believe he will ever be at Dirk's level - hope I'm wrong.

LX 03-03-2011 06:57 AM

When Dirk spends most of an entire month shooting under 40 percent, and being completely lost on defense (I know - it's hard), get back to me.

Ammo 03-03-2011 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 515880)
When Dirk spends most of an entire month shooting under 40 percent, and being completely lost on defense (I know - it's hard), get back to me.

Oooh. It hurts because it's true.

Chiggmo 03-03-2011 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LX (Post 515880)
When Dirk spends most of an entire month shooting under 40 percent, and being completely lost on defense (I know - it's hard), get back to me.

Or when Bargs learns how to play D and be consistant night in and night out, we can try again? Kind of the reverse of what your sayin :P

TORaptor4Ever 03-03-2011 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rimpianto (Post 515876)
I would love to se Bargs reach Dirk level, but right now I think he's more on a Rasheed level.

Sheed would beat you senseless if he ever heard you say that.

For almost all of his career Rasheed Wallace was a premiere defender at the PF position and could score inside and out against pretty much anyone.

Bargs has a LONG, long way to go before he's even mentioned in the same breath as a guy like that...... let alone Dirk.

Aar_Canada 03-03-2011 08:56 AM

Andrea's on a shit team and has been most of his NBA career.

MikeToronto 03-03-2011 10:00 AM

Offensively, with a little more consistency, Bargnani could be mentioned in the same sentence as Dirk or Bosh. The problems with him are all on the defensive end of the floor, and there they appear to be of a mental nature. I still have a lingering hope that Bargnani is a good/right coach away from being a premier two-way big.

b55bgc 03-03-2011 10:10 AM

when you have amir, davis and johnson bringing it every night. Barganani lack of help defense will not be noticed. He is a pretty good one on one defender.
Defense is a team skill for the most part, if one person doesnt put in the effort, it makes all of them look bad.

His style of play doesnt allow him to be getting rebounds. He is rarely under the net for that matter.

People need to realize that aint what he is out there to do. For the most part BArgnani rivals most of the centres in the league. Toronto just needs a full size big on the bench to rival the few teams that have a huge centre under the basket.

m5racer 03-03-2011 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oneironaught (Post 515871)
Dirk is a hall of famer. Bargs, on the other hand, will likely be remembered most for what he achieved before stepping on an NBA court, being selected 1st overall, rather than his play on it.

Your right, and Dirk can be remembered for all those failed, failed FAILED playoff runs......remember a few years back when dallas was 1st in regualr season and then the playoffs roll around and they are out in the first round, in 4 games i believe........ oh all the things dirk has done, and the rebounding, hes a beast at 6.7!! What what! .....

leftcoastbballfan 03-03-2011 10:24 AM

Dirk is the man on a winning basketball team........Andre is the man on a team that doesn't.

jeffb 03-03-2011 10:29 AM

So......a 25yr old player is playing under the level of a 30yr old future HOF and former MVP.

And there are a few things that also need to be looked at, Nowitzki takes 3 less shots per game then Bargnani therefore on less shots he's averaging more PPG on a much more talented team. If Bargnani had that talent around him he'd be lucky to average 18ppg. Also, defense.....Dirk is no great defender but he's better then Bargnani. This comparing these two players seriously has to stop. Hell, Nowitzki's shooting %, let alone his consistency/effort/competitivness puts him on a whole other level. Bargnani will never be on the level of a Dirk Nowitzki, he doesn't have it in him as a competitor.

creative1mm 03-03-2011 10:35 AM

the funny thing is.. if raptors were actually winning games this year and top 5 team in the league, then the comparison would be way more closer

EggsToTheBBQ 03-03-2011 10:37 AM

Dirk scores far more efficiently than Bargs and he's a far superior rebounder if you look at his career numbers. Also, I don't feel that Dallas is particularly strong without Dirk. His impact on a successful team is undeniable, something that Bargs has never achieved.

I'm not a big fan of player comparisons in general. This particular comparison comes up a lot, but Dirk is a much higher quality player than Bargnani has ever shown to be. Bargs still has room to grow, though. Perhaps a fairer comparison would be Antoine Walker. Walker gives up a little to Bargs in terms of offensive efficiency, but he was a better rebounder. I would put Bargs on the same level as Antoine Walker.

I don't think that Bargs has had his breakout season yet. I have been saying for a number of years now that Bargs will show up to training camp one season looking in great shape, and that will be his breakout season. I haven't seen his conditioning improve much if any since his rookie season. He really doesn't have the body of a successful NBA PF.

jeffb 03-03-2011 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creative1mm (Post 515906)
the funny thing is.. if raptors were actually winning games this year and top 5 team in the league, then the comparison would be way more closer

No it wouldn't, because if we were more talented Bargnani wouldn't be taking 18-19 shots per game and would be lucky to get 18ppg. Like i said, if Bargnani took the shots per game that Dirk did, he'd be in the 17-18ppg range, hense the lower shooting %.

carp 03-03-2011 10:45 AM

comparing Bargnani, an 8M player to Dirk, a max money guy, is only giving the haters an opportunity to hate again.

They're in two entirely different situations..... and for those suggesting AB as the man that leads a team nowhere is an indictment of his talent, why are they the same ones calling Bosh an elite PF?

Fans overrate their faves, bash the guys they don't like.... and it seems very few have the patience to stick with a team through a rebuilding process. Why the incessant need to scapegoat one player?

carp 03-03-2011 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 515908)
No it wouldn't, because if we were more talented Bargnani wouldn't be taking 18-19 shots per game and would be lucky to get 18ppg. Like i said, if Bargnani took the shots per game that Dirk did, he'd be in the 17-18ppg range, hense the lower shooting %.

you're talking like you're in a vacuum.... it isn't as linear as you suggest.


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