Bargnani: "I have to do better this season." - Page 2
Old 09-12-2008, 10:17 PM   #21 (permalink)
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He definatly needs it
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Old 09-12-2008, 10:30 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Arsenalist View Post
Sam definitely didn't help with his quick hooks after early foul trouble but when he gave up offensive rebounds and didn't bother fighting for positioning in the first quarter, a coach's hand is forced.

Sam's early subs because of fouls were totally pointless, how many games did Andrea end up fouling out of last year? I think maybe 1 or 2. What was he "saving" him for? I would've liked to see Sam stick him in there until he picked up all his fouls in the first half and then went to the bench in deep thought.
First off, you haven't got a clue what youíre talking about. It has dick all to do with Sam making poor Subs, honestly.

I wish a lot of you blog writing experts had actually played a little ball, just a bit; maybe you'd have a grasp on the MYRIAD of things that go on.

I'm not ruling out that Mitchell is just a fucking knob, maybe he is, but honestly, I've heard the man speak enough to know what I know, and he ain't that bad.

These kids get tossed in with specific tasks, when they fail at accomplishing them; they get yanked...and guess what, that just one scenario. There's injuries, locker room drama, a whole crap load of BS that goes on. Not to mention Salaries, pecking order, agents GM's battling...... itís endless.

But hey, keep yapping the stats, keep catching the highlights and using subconscious shit ya here on espn...it will make ya famous I hope.

Here's the thing though, Iím not even just talking about Bargnani, or the raps, I'm talking about all sports, all pro teams. People think they know, as if they are somehow cosmically affiliated because they have some real interest and a good head on their shoulders. Well, that ain't enough, hell, having played aint enough; you have to be there, in the room, on the floor, in the huddle.

If you aren't, you're opinion is shit.

Well, perhaps not shit, thats unfair, but I honestly believe that our PC society gives too much weight to people just because our "opinions" are fundamental rights.

Sometimes opinions...... are just wrong.

Pre-emptively, mine is right on this one, so suck it!

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Old 09-13-2008, 01:13 AM   #23 (permalink)
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First off, you haven't got a clue what youíre talking about. It has dick all to do with Sam making poor Subs, honestly.

I wish a lot of you blog writing experts had actually played a little ball, just a bit; maybe you'd have a grasp on the MYRIAD of things that go on.

I'm not ruling out that Mitchell is just a fucking knob, maybe he is, but honestly, I've heard the man speak enough to know what I know, and he ain't that bad.

These kids get tossed in with specific tasks, when they fail at accomplishing them; they get yanked...and guess what, that just one scenario. There's injuries, locker room drama, a whole crap load of BS that goes on. Not to mention Salaries, pecking order, agents GM's battling...... itís endless.

But hey, keep yapping the stats, keep catching the highlights and using subconscious shit ya here on espn...it will make ya famous I hope.

Here's the thing though, Iím not even just talking about Bargnani, or the raps, I'm talking about all sports, all pro teams. People think they know, as if they are somehow cosmically affiliated because they have some real interest and a good head on their shoulders. Well, that ain't enough, hell, having played aint enough; you have to be there, in the room, on the floor, in the huddle.

If you aren't, you're opinion is shit.

Well, perhaps not shit, thats unfair, but I honestly believe that our PC society gives too much weight to people just because our "opinions" are fundamental rights.

Sometimes opinions...... are just wrong.

Pre-emptively, mine is right on this one, so suck it!

That little attack came out of nowhere really, I guess you felt like going off on a tangent against me.

Two things I'd like to say:

1) Sam generally makes very poor subs, I can point to numerous instances in the fourth quarter where he did unthinkable stuff. But getting back to Bargnani, he was negatively affected by his sub-pattern to a degree. There's something to be said for continuity of playing time and he never got it because he got into foul trouble too often and had to be sat down. As I said in my previous post (which I don't think you even read), Sam's hand was forced due to Bargnani's miscues such as failing to box out etc but generally speaking, if you're developing a #1 European pick you have to let him play through his mistakes and hand-hold him more than others. I'm not defending Bargnani, just pointing out what the Raptors need to do in order to get something/anything out of him.

2) I don't watch ESPN. I don't catch the highlights, I just re-watch the game and I play ball three times a week. Keep the childish personal attacks out of the conversation.
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Old 09-13-2008, 01:24 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Its not his fault. Sam did this to him.
I agree to a certain degree but its also Colangelo's fault for pressuring Sam to move the guy to the five, out of his natural position, as well. Andrea was never trained to play the American style back to the basket and he has never been asked to guard guys as big and as strong as the centers in the NBA. He was asked to do a job which he had little experience and little education. He's not a center, he's a forward. Maybe he can be a center one day but he's not close to being there yet. He's going to bounce back and its largely going to be back they're going to start asking realistic things of him again.
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Old 09-13-2008, 01:54 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenalist View Post
Sam definitely didn't help with his quick hooks after early foul trouble but when he gave up offensive rebounds and didn't bother fighting for positioning in the first quarter, a coach's hand is forced.

Sam's early subs because of fouls were totally pointless, how many games did Andrea end up fouling out of last year? I think maybe 1 or 2. What was he "saving" him for? I would've liked to see Sam stick him in there until he picked up all his fouls in the first half and then went to the bench in deep thought.
that was very weird, and indeed pointed on the forum many times. The only explanations I can think of are that either Sam tried to teach him to stay out of foul trouble, or (more likely), Sam didn't really want to play him (but feels pressured to do it) and was using the fouls as an excuse to yank him asap.
Nothing else makes sense to me (I'm sure Sam knows that there's no risk in keeping Andreea on the floor with 2 fouls, given that he almost never played in the 4th quarter).
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Old 09-13-2008, 12:16 PM   #26 (permalink)
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1=Chris Bosh
2a=Rasho
2b=Bargnani
and after that was everbody else.

You guys are going a bit overboard with the quick hooks. (Andrea Bargnani-23.9 minutes a game, 5th on the Raps) This is deja vu of Hoffa arguments from 3 years ago. Those had some merit at the time, although Hoffa failed to prove those right in Utah.
Bargnani was still a rotation player last year despite his offensive struggles. How many games did Bargnani not play in the second half unless due to injury??


If Bargnani was picking up 4 fouls in the first quarter I think we might be reading about how much of a knob Sam Mitchell is for leaving himself with no options other than the much-villainized Kris Humphries. Maybe Sam thinks more of Bargnani then some of you do, since he obviously valued the option of being able to sub him in for later parts of the game.

Bargnani made leaps and bounds last year on the defensive end and pretty much in every area of this game that doesn't include having the ball in his hands. He improved, and Sam knows it, and he'll get his chances again this year to be an important pat of this team just like last year.
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Old 09-13-2008, 06:27 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Arsenalist View Post
That little attack came out of nowhere really, I guess you felt like going off on a tangent against me.

Two things I'd like to say:

1) Sam generally makes very poor subs, I can point to numerous instances in the fourth quarter where he did unthinkable stuff. But getting back to Bargnani, he was negatively affected by his sub-pattern to a degree. There's something to be said for continuity of playing time and he never got it because he got into foul trouble too often and had to be sat down. As I said in my previous post (which I don't think you even read), Sam's hand was forced due to Bargnani's miscues such as failing to box out etc but generally speaking, if you're developing a #1 European pick you have to let him play through his mistakes and hand-hold him more than others. I'm not defending Bargnani, just pointing out what the Raptors need to do in order to get something/anything out of him.

2) I don't watch ESPN. I don't catch the highlights, I just re-watch the game and I play ball three times a week. Keep the childish personal attacks out of the conversation.
You're fragile.
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Old 09-13-2008, 06:30 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
1=Chris Bosh
2a=Rasho
2b=Bargnani
and after that was everbody else.

You guys are going a bit overboard with the quick hooks. (Andrea Bargnani-23.9 minutes a game, 5th on the Raps) This is deja vu of Hoffa arguments from 3 years ago. Those had some merit at the time, although Hoffa failed to prove those right in Utah.
Bargnani was still a rotation player last year despite his offensive struggles. How many games did Bargnani not play in the second half unless due to injury??


If Bargnani was picking up 4 fouls in the first quarter I think we might be reading about how much of a knob Sam Mitchell is for leaving himself with no options other than the much-villainized Kris Humphries. Maybe Sam thinks more of Bargnani then some of you do, since he obviously valued the option of being able to sub him in for later parts of the game.

Bargnani made leaps and bounds last year on the defensive end and pretty much in every area of this game that doesn't include having the ball in his hands. He improved, and Sam knows it, and he'll get his chances again this year to be an important pat of this team just like last year.
funny, nobody seems to see those leaps and bounds.

i'm with ya on this one!
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Old 09-13-2008, 10:41 PM   #29 (permalink)
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There's any number of ways I could look at this one, and I'm not realy even sure what the argument is exactly. I agree on the progress Bargnani made on defense and positioning. I also saw some struggles and some nights of disinterest. It was an up-and-down struggle of a season for various reasons, and generally I thought Sam pushed the right buttons to ensure that some progress could come out of it, and that the ultimate goal of Andrea developing into a versatile and complete player was not lost. My guess is that Bargnani recognizes the fullness and importance of that goal now, and it has been suggested that he has worked hard in the off-season to that end.

I've questioned whether Bargnani's mind is in the right place, and I think he has resisted accepting what he needs to do on this team and in the NBA, and he's gone through quite a bit of personal turmoil to go along with that. But I think that is all in the past, and he's going to find himself out on the floor to finish a good share of close games before the season ends.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:34 PM   #30 (permalink)
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This is almost becoming a TJ vs Jose thing except it's a Bargs pro vs Bargs neg thing.
Count me as Bargs pro.. I've played and coached and while I think Bargs needs to develop more in the area of rebound bloodhound, I blame Sam for most of his problems.
I remember at the begining of the year Bosh was hoisting and missing everything
Bargs on the other hand got off to a great beginning.
Sam in his wisdom thought he should sit Bargs in order to get CB4 on track.
And so it started. the Bargs see saw. I could care less how many minutes he got, it's when he got those minutes that count. Sam showed an incredible lack of faith in him when it mattered most. So whether Bargs had a fragile ego and couldn't handle the bs or whether he thought Fuck you Sam, the fact is that Sam screwed with his head especially when you consider a statment Sam made somewhere in the first half of the season,basically saying that he wasn't speaking to Bargs hoping the cold shoulder would make him respond. What incredible coaching!!! I'm sure the Rileys, Jacksons, Sloans etc are putting that one in their playbook

My only hope for Bargs this season is that BC has told Sam that if the kid is playing poorly....LET him play through it. Not once did Sam do that with Bargs last year. Yet Bosh, Parker, TJ all got to play through stretches of piss poor play. THAT'S how you develop confidence.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:58 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I agree - I had the same feelings at the beginning of last season. Bargani was playing very well, and Bosh was struggling. First, against Boston, Bargnani was clearly defending garnett better, and despite this, Mitchell chose to go with Bosh against Garnett in overtime, where Garnett scored, or created wide open shots four times in a row by overpowering Bosh in the post.

Then, when we played Milwaukee, and the whole team stunk, after the game, Mitchell decided to send a sign by moving Bargnani to the bench??? I thought that was a really really poor decision, because it was extremely unfair to Andreea, who wasn't more guilty then the other players for that defeat.

And finally, when Mitchell spoke publicly about Andreea's lack of effort/commitment in training, which was extremely weird, especially given that all indications until then were that Andreea is a gym rat of sorts. Either everybody was lying until then, or Mitchell tried to "jumpstart" Andreea - which again, I find very poor coaching.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:02 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Basically
Bargs is gonna be a great player
Sam is a great coach
Rebounding doesnt matter
Bargs will be starting SF
He will be sixth man
He will be MIP

Bargs is an absolutly horrible player
Sam is a terrible coach
Bargs will never be able to rebound
We loose games because of Bargs
Bargs cant play defense.

Did I leave anything out?
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:38 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Bargnani was not moved to the bench as some sort of punishment, or to get Bosh going. Bosh was still getting into shape having come off an injury, and it was understood that only time was going help. Rasho needed to be moved to the starting lineup, because he was doing nothing on the bench, and was just an entirely different player the whole season when he was on the floor with TJ instead of Jose.

So Sam showed so little faith in Bargnani? That's ridiculous to the point of being the kind of whining that some display over Hoffa. Bargnani kept on playing big minutes through stretches where he could not do shit. I remember thinking the guy should maybe be benched. But he was not. And look who was there starting in the playoffs. Boy there was such a lack of faith in the guy. That completely explains his poor shooting! He had to experience such horrible injustice!

FREE BARGS!
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Old 09-19-2008, 09:15 AM   #34 (permalink)
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even so - do you bench your #1 draft pick so you can revive an aging player who most likely will leave the team in a couple of years??? Just so you can win a few more games (which in the end they didn't)? I just can't see the logic in this.
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Old 09-19-2008, 11:47 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Raptors need to get better and it might halp Brags coming on for JO
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