The Bargnani hate is excessive and a little embarrassing - Page 3
Old 09-14-2011, 07:56 PM   #41 (permalink)
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So

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My point simply is in sports to be a winner you need to win somewhere, sometime.
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Old 09-14-2011, 09:53 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Omg what's your point? That doesn't make any sense. Adam was a winner and proved it in college, that doesn't make him better than Wade. I already addressed players that have skills and ride a good team to win - aka Bargs.

Wow we have to be completely bored if this is a debate lol. Stupid players thinking they can win against billionaires that don't need the team to make a living unlike the players. Totally kills my 4 fantasy leagues.
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Old 09-14-2011, 10:23 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Omg what's your point? That doesn't make any sense. Adam was a winner and proved it in college, that doesn't make him better than Wade. I already addressed players that have skills and ride a good team to win - aka Bargs.

Wow we have to be completely bored if this is a debate lol. Stupid players thinking they can win against billionaires that don't need the team to make a living unlike the players. Totally kills my 4 fantasy leagues.
you may have addressed it, but it doesn't make it true.
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Old 09-15-2011, 01:58 AM   #44 (permalink)
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hey i'm a Bargs fan and i've said that repeatedly, but to me it's true till he does more than what he's shown.
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Old 09-15-2011, 07:48 AM   #45 (permalink)
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hey i'm a Bargs fan and i've said that repeatedly, but to me it's true till he does more than what he's shown.

the thing is mate, and 3 people have tried to address this with you, you've kind of contradicted yourself a couple of times.

i just kind of feel like repeating; in a team sport you can not judge someone as a winner or not based on what they've literally won. now, that might sound stupid, but your team-mates could have carried you all the way to that. you could have been playing 4 mins per game.

it is a personality trait. yet another angle, i would argue it's not really even about how good you are. Derek fisher is a good example imo. He's not an awesome player and he's not the main reason the lakers won titles, but to me he is a winner. Good team-mate, inspires those around him, good talker, captain type personality, never intimidated, clutch performer.

going back to isiah, i said he was every bit as much of a winner as kobe but has less titles, you didn't really address that. Is MJ 5% (or whatever,) more of a winner than kobe?
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Old 09-15-2011, 08:57 AM   #46 (permalink)
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hey i'm a Bargs fan and i've said that repeatedly, but to me it's true till he does more than what he's shown.
Purely subjective so basically it's unarguable.
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:06 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I think what Doc is trying to say is that to be a winner you have to have won, but having won doesn't necessarily make you a winner. i.e. Morrison rides a team to a championship, so he's won, but isn't a winner. Nor does winning more often make one more of a winner, it is simply an entry requirement into the winners club, so to speak.

Now, I don't agree with him, but his standpoint is much more reasonable than you guys are making it out to be.
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:18 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I think what Doc is trying to say is that to be a winner you have to have won, but having won doesn't necessarily make you a winner. i.e. Morrison rides a team to a championship, so he's won, but isn't a winner. Nor does winning more often make one more of a winner, it is simply an entry requirement into the winners club, so to speak.

Now, I don't agree with him, but his standpoint is much more reasonable than you guys are making it out to be.
My contention started with DD being an assumed winner and AB not... it's just not based in anything substantial. I agree with Doc's general theory.
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:58 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Purely subjective so basically it's unarguable.
Like yours and everyone else's opinion here - nothing more than subjective interpretation of the facts.

In regards to the thread though, IMO - Bargs has been a winner at every level he's played at until now. Unfortuanately, his apparent lack of raising his game to NBA calibre will call out his entire career - was it him that brought that 'winning' attitude or others on his team?

I for one still have hope

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Old 09-15-2011, 01:03 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Like yours and everyone else's opinion here - nothing more than subjective interpretation of the facts.
absolutely.... the issue is when it is stated as fact. I agree that we all have opinions.


I agree that you have an opinion about Bargs.... I think we both agree there should be hope....

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Old 09-15-2011, 01:23 PM   #51 (permalink)
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absolutely.... the issue is when it is stated as fact. I agree that we all have opinions.


I agree that you have an opinion about Bargs.... I think we both agree there should be hope....
That is a very good point....passion will do that and I have fallen into that trap
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Old 09-15-2011, 01:43 PM   #52 (permalink)
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That is a very good point....passion will do that and I have fallen into that trap
many have... but never me!
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Old 09-15-2011, 01:55 PM   #53 (permalink)
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I think what Doc is trying to say is that to be a winner you have to have won, but having won doesn't necessarily make you a winner. i.e. Morrison rides a team to a championship, so he's won, but isn't a winner. Nor does winning more often make one more of a winner, it is simply an entry requirement into the winners club, so to speak.

Now, I don't agree with him, but his standpoint is much more reasonable than you guys are making it out to be.
that argument makes logical sense to me, so point well made, but i still don't agree with it.
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Old 09-15-2011, 02:01 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Like yours and everyone else's opinion here - nothing more than subjective interpretation of the facts.

In regards to the thread though, IMO - Bargs has been a winner at every level he's played at until now. Unfortuanately, his apparent lack of raising his game to NBA calibre will call out his entire career - was it him that brought that 'winning' attitude or others on his team?

I for one still have hope
imo, once a winner, always a winner. I don't regard Bargs as a winner really, but certainly not soft or a loser either.

like i said to carp earlier in the thread maybe it is a cultural difference in terms of definition.

what did you think about my points on isiah, kobe and MJ? and on the flipside someone like derek fisher?
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Old 09-15-2011, 03:34 PM   #55 (permalink)
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imo, once a winner, always a winner. I don't regard Bargs as a winner really, but certainly not soft or a loser either.

like i said to carp earlier in the thread maybe it is a cultural difference in terms of definition.

what did you think about my points on isiah, kobe and MJ? and on the flipside someone like derek fisher?
DanH summed it up well, all of them are winners cause they have won and are in that 'winners' club and did things for their team to win in crucial moments. I think though we are just talking the issue from 2 different points of view. I'm coming from the angle that in sports, a person is remembered and measured for what they have won. Period. There is no other real criteria that fans or athletes care about - at the end of the day I want my team to win, I want to have that guy that helps my team win, I want other teams to envy the team that I love. No one cares about players that can't will their team to win, or can't make other players better - those players that can are winners and are coveted and all stars and are looked up to and are few.

I guess you can have be percieved as a winner in character or whatever else but no one cares about those guys in the end.

And Bargs is totally soft and right now he does not make other players better on the Raps. And no, you certainly didn't call him a loser. I think Bargs is stuck in limbo between achieving everything he has the potential for and falling off the map.
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Old 09-15-2011, 03:40 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I think it's entirely possible that Bargnani has the mentality of a winner. I think that is one thing that attracted me to him. Unfortunately, he just doesn't have the reaction time to deal with the speed of a very different NBA game. There was a piece on Dirk during the playoffs where he said he realized he needed to radically change his approach to be able to deal with the speed of the game. Without that his mentality wouldn't have been enough to bring success. And I think it's probably too late for hoping that Andrea is transformed in such a manner. When you look at how much his game dips when he gets a little worn down, it sort of indicates how far he would have to go to get to where Dirk is at. If only he had a really good motor - there would be room for hope then, or me anyway.
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Old 09-15-2011, 03:52 PM   #57 (permalink)
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DanH summed it up well, all of them are winners cause they have won and are in that 'winners' club and did things for their team to win in crucial moments. I think though we are just talking the issue from 2 different points of view. I'm coming from the angle that in sports, a person is remembered and measured for what they have won. Period. There is no other real criteria that fans or athletes care about - at the end of the day I want my team to win, I want to have that guy that helps my team win, I want other teams to envy the team that I love. No one cares about players that can't will their team to win, or can't make other players better - those players that can are winners and are coveted and all stars and are looked up to and are few.

I guess you can have be percieved as a winner in character or whatever else but no one cares about those guys in the end.

And Bargs is totally soft and right now he does not make other players better on the Raps. And no, you certainly didn't call him a loser. I think Bargs is stuck in limbo between achieving everything he has the potential for and falling off the map.
some well made points there mate.

the majority of people definitely do only care about rings. I tend to find a lot of my opinions don't always match up with the majority! Where we're definitely the same is that i also want to have players and a team that others envy or respect.

i think if a player is a winner by my definition on a crap team, he can help that team win more games and be better and therefore he's a winner (partly) by your definition. He probably wouldn't stay at the team for long and would end up at a good team and win rings. But for me he still would've been a winner BEFORE he went to that good team and won things.

I'm probably :deadhorse: but for me it's an interesting debate.
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Old 09-15-2011, 09:10 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I think it's entirely possible that Bargnani has the mentality of a winner. I think that is one thing that attracted me to him. Unfortunately, he just doesn't have the reaction time to deal with the speed of a very different NBA game. There was a piece on Dirk during the playoffs where he said he realized he needed to radically change his approach to be able to deal with the speed of the game. Without that his mentality wouldn't have been enough to bring success. And I think it's probably too late for hoping that Andrea is transformed in such a manner. When you look at how much his game dips when he gets a little worn down, it sort of indicates how far he would have to go to get to where Dirk is at. If only he had a really good motor - there would be room for hope then, or me anyway.
I disagree in that I think he is a great athlete, and that he has wonderful reaction time. What he seems to lack is the need to win. The ability to focus and become intense to the point that he simply HAS to win, and HAS to out work his opponents.

I hope I'm wrong.... but fuck
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Old 09-16-2011, 11:26 AM   #59 (permalink)
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I disagree in that I think he is a great athlete, and that he has wonderful reaction time. What he seems to lack is the need to win. The ability to focus and become intense to the point that he simply HAS to win, and HAS to out work his opponents.
I hope I'm wrong.... but fuck
and there you have it....the difference in what we have been debating here summed up in one simple sentence
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Old 09-16-2011, 11:40 AM   #60 (permalink)
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and there you have it....the difference in what we have been debating here summed up in one simple sentence
Not really.... it's still an opinion.... lol
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