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-   -   Bargnani Dilemma (http://www.raptorsforum.com/f/f5/bargnani-dilemma-19515.html)

moujik 02-26-2011 06:21 PM

Bargnani Dilemma
 
He stretches the floor, making lanes for driving. Without Bargnani on the floor teams pack it in and if either Barbosa, Jose or Jerryd are not shooting well, we struggle to score.
On the defensive end he's abysmal. If he hedges he stops round our 3-pt line not bothering TRYING to recover, in the post he gets abused. He doesn't box out, even though he's NOT athletic and can't leap up rebounds. He doesn't react at all very often, just watches Amir fight a losing battle against Bargnani's guy who hasn't been boxed out.

The biggest problem is they're trying to make Bosh out of Bargnani. It was good job not to keep him on the short leash 2 years ago for his confidence. But now! All Triano and Collangelo have talked about is commitment to the D. And how can you send any message through when you let Bargnani get away with any lack of effort?! No matter how great you are offensively you cannot succeed without being able to make consecutive stops on D. And we're not capable of that, while Bargnani is playing, unfortunately.

I can only see two possible ways: Having Andrea as an impact player off the bench, which isn't happening at TO in the near future.
Alternatively, play Nelly ball, entertain, but lose a couple of seasons, which would be better but is not an option.
So the second option is move him and give head to DeRozan instead.

I'm sorry, I'm just so frustrated watching us crumble and Bargnani becoming untouchable.
Do you have better solutions?

carp 02-26-2011 06:30 PM

I didn't mind watching the Chicago game... not sure there is an issue.

js12 02-26-2011 06:33 PM

As long as Bryan Colangelo is the GM of the Raptors, Bargnani is untouchable.

I like BC a lot, but I don't like Bargnani. He's too much of a liability. Even though he is a 20 point scorer (might I add on a terrible team), he is not a winning player. I seriously think that Toronto's defensive woes are because of Andrea. Ever since he was moved to the center position, our defence has gone downhill. In his rookie season, our squad was actually an above average defensive team (around 12th in the league in terms of points allowed). He also happened to be in the power forward position, where his lack of help defence and rebounding was masked.

In order for this team to move forward, I think Bargnani has to go.

'trane 02-26-2011 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by js12 (Post 514136)
As long as Bryan Colangelo is the GM of the Raptors, Bargnani is untouchable.

I like BC a lot, but I don't like Bargnani. He's too much of a liability. Even though he is a 20 point scorer (might I add on a terrible team), he is not a winning player. I seriously think that Toronto's defensive woes are because of Andrea. Ever since he was moved to the center position, our defence has gone downhill. In his rookie season, our squad was actually an above average defensive team (around 12th in the league in terms of points allowed). He also happened to be in the power forward position, where his lack of help defence and rebounding was masked.

In order for this team to move forward, I think Bargnani has to go.

we've changed nearly the entire roster 2 or 3 times since his rookie year. how can the erosion of defense be all on him? that makes no sense at all.

moujik 02-26-2011 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carp (Post 514133)
I didn't mind watching the Chicago game... not sure there is an issue.

one game out of..
and that was thanks to AMIR! His composure in two crucial plays, and Triano's putting Sonny on D Rose at the end!

RAPMAN 02-26-2011 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 514139)
we've changed nearly the entire roster 2 or 3 times since his rookie year. how can the erosion of defense be all on him? that makes no sense at all.

A young team follows its leader. The leaders on this team is Calderon and Bargnani. To kill the snake, chop off its head.

moujik 02-26-2011 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 514139)
we've changed nearly the entire roster 2 or 3 times since his rookie year. how can the erosion of defense be all on him? that makes no sense at all.

His position is pivotal for D. + you see everyone else try their hardest (except Mr 1 for 18)
even Andersen who was known soft didn't look as bad.

js12 02-26-2011 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 514139)
we've changed nearly the entire roster 2 or 3 times since his rookie year. how can the erosion of defense be all on him? that makes no sense at all.

Our main problem on defence is points allowed in the paint and three point shots. A lot of three point shots are caused by penetration in the paint. If we had a center that can defend, a lot of points can be prevented.

Bargnani has shown time to time that he can not block shots, and can not react to player switching. It costs the Raptors at least 10-20 points every game. In Bargnani's rookie season, he played PF. The role of interior defence did not fall entirely on his shoulders.

'trane 02-26-2011 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by js12 (Post 514147)
Our main problem on defence is points allowed in the paint and three point shots. A lot of three point shots are caused by penetration in the paint. If we had a center that can defend, a lot of points can be prevented.

Bargnani has shown time to time that he can not block shots, and can not react to player switching. It costs the Raptors at least 10-20 points every game. In Bargnani's rookie season, he played PF. The role of interior defence did not fall entirely on his shoulders.

i never suggested he was a good defender. my views on that are well chronicled on this site. my point was that saying we were a good defending team several years ago when almost our entire roster was different than it is now is not a reasonable criticism of bargnani.

he's a bad defender. there is no denying that. and he's never been a leader in teh nba, so i have no idea why anyone would claim that he is (@ rapman).

our team stinks, we are rebuilding. have a little patience.

LightsOut 02-26-2011 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moujik (Post 514132)
He stretches the floor, making lanes for driving. Without Bargnani on the floor teams pack it in and if either Barbosa, Jose or Jerryd are not shooting well, we struggle to score.
On the defensive end he's abysmal. If he hedges he stops round our 3-pt line not bothering TRYING to recover, in the post he gets abused. He doesn't box out, even though he's NOT athletic and can't leap up rebounds. He doesn't react at all very often, just watches Amir fight a losing battle against Bargnani's guy who hasn't been boxed out.

The biggest problem is they're trying to make Bosh out of Bargnani. It was good job not to keep him on the short leash 2 years ago for his confidence. But now! All Triano and Collangelo have talked about is commitment to the D. And how can you send any message through when you let Bargnani get away with any lack of effort?! No matter how great you are offensively you cannot succeed without being able to make consecutive stops on D. And we're not capable of that, while Bargnani is playing, unfortunately.

I can only see two possible ways: Having Andrea as an impact player of the bench, which isn't happening at TO in the near future.
Alternatively, play Nelly ball, entertain, but lose a couple of seasons, which would be better but is not an option.
So the second option is move him and give head to DeRozan instead.
I'm sorry, I'm just so frustrated watching us crumble and Bargnani becoming untouchable.
Do you have better solutions?

:nono_h4h:

th3answ3r 02-26-2011 07:00 PM

can you imagine bargnani playing for the heat?

Snooch 02-26-2011 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by js12 (Post 514147)
Our main problem on defence is points allowed in the paint and three point shots. A lot of three point shots are caused by penetration in the paint. If we had a center that can defend, a lot of points can be prevented.

I agree because it is a well known fact that the centers,(on the defensive side of the court) main job is to prevent dribble penetration.

All of the real centers in the league easily stop that penetration from wings that are half their size, twice their speed and generally twice as athletic. It is a thing of beauty watching a guy like dwight get switched onto someone like derrick rose and shut him down.

How about instead of solely bashing bargs, bash the entire team cause there really is NO defense on this team. Amir and Ed hustle but thats not defense. Jose/Demar/Barbo/Bayless/Kleiza/Weems have all been absolutely abysmal all season long.

moujik 02-26-2011 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snooch (Post 514156)
I agree because it is a well known fact that the centers,(on the defensive side of the court) main job is to prevent dribble penetration.

All of the real centers in the league easily stop that penetration from wings that are half their size, twice their speed and generally twice as athletic. It is a thing of beauty watching a guy like dwight get switched onto someone like derrick rose and shut him down.

How about instead of solely bashing bargs, bash the entire team cause there really is NO defense on this team. Amir and Ed hustle but thats not defense. Jose/Demar/Barbo/Bayless/Kleiza/Weems have all been absolutely abysmal all season long.

Guess what - Bargnani won't be on D Rose because he'll still be "hedging" while Rose lays it in. It's mostly about help D, rebounds, defensive presence in the paint, these sort of things. Ed misses sometimes, but it's his rookie year. How can a player not learn anything on D in 3 years?? Maybe he doesn't want to pick up fouls.
The point is you cannot let it slide if you want to instil something!
As soon as Weems misses a jumper the commentators open their mouth, just like they did with Jamario, and he's benched. Bayless, Barbo turn it over being aggressive - benched. Everyone is accountable, but not Andrea.
Take him out a few times after lazy watching, maybe he gets the message, cause he still thinks he can only PLAY piano.

p.s. I see a big promise in Ajinca.

RAPMAN 02-26-2011 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'trane (Post 514149)
he's a bad defender. there is no denying that. and he's never been a leader in teh nba, so i have no idea why anyone would claim that he is (@ rapman).


Sorry trane, I have to disagree with you. With the exception of Calderon and Bargnani, the majority of players on this team have been here less than one or two years on the Raptors. You can even say the majority of players on this team have been in the NBA less than one or two years. Calderon and Bargnani maynot be the vocal leaders on this team, but they are the players most look up to. You can say they lead by example.

jeffb 02-26-2011 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RAPMAN (Post 514161)
Sorry trane, I have to disagree with you. With the exception of Calderon and Bargnani, the majority of players on this team have been here less than one or two years on the Raptors. You can even say the majority of players on this team have been in the NBA less than one or two years. Calderon and Bargnani maynot be the vocal leaders on this team, but they are the players most look up to. You can say they lead by example.

What example? How to play awful defense? How to at times give minimal effort (bargs)? If these two are the players looked at as examples on what to do, no wonder we're the worst defensive team in the league. Experience does not make one a leader. And neither of these two are leaders, especially Bargnani.

RAPMAN 02-26-2011 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 514162)
What example? How to play awful defense? How to at times give minimal effort (bargs)? If these two are the players looked at as examples on what to do, no wonder we're the worst defensive team in the league.

Thats my point.

Snooch 02-26-2011 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffb (Post 514162)
What example? How to play awful defense? How to at times give minimal effort (bargs)? If these two are the players looked at as examples on what to do, no wonder we're the worst defensive team in the league. Experience does not make one a leader. And neither of these two are leaders, especially Bargnani.

you're not going to blame triano? or BC?

Defense does indeed need to have players that commit to it, but sound defensive sets are just as important for a team to succeed, and as much as I like triano, his is not a defensive coach.


Does bargs defense need alot of improving, absolutely, does he at times look like he is just going through the motions, absolutely(does the same on offense even when he is dropping 25 points) But if this team had wing players who could at least make penetration a bit more difficult on the other team Bargs defense would look alot better. There is a huge amount of areas that need improving on this team and the sum of the parts amplifies the mistakes that Bargs makes.

every sigle player on the team needs to step up their defensive game

js12 02-26-2011 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snooch (Post 514166)

Defense does indeed need to have players that commit to it, but sound defensive sets are just as important for a team to succeed, and as much as I like triano, his is not a defensive coach.

Sam Mitchell was a hardass coach that preached defence and rebounding, but he also failed to get Bargnani to do both.

My point is that the player more at fault than the coach.

RAPMAN 02-26-2011 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snooch (Post 514166)
you're not going to blame triano? or BC?

Defense does indeed need to have players that commit to it, but sound defensive sets are just as important for a team to succeed, and as much as I like triano, his is not a defensive coach.

They have given Triano an assistant coach PJ who has the defensive background. Its gets to the point where the players have to buy into the system and become commited and accountable on the defensive end.

Scully 02-26-2011 08:10 PM

I think Bargs is a terrible team defender. But I do think he gets painted unfairly as biggest liability. Usually because he is the last domino to fall. He has terrible lateral mobility, and a poor vertical, He is not Dwight Howard, and everyone knows it his team mates, the coaching staff. But no is reacting on the floor or on the side line, or in the gym. BC has made him one of the keys to the franchise yet no one on this roster wants to account for his inabilities. This is a team sport, defenses aren't islands of positions and players, people have to come together, or accept losing. He sucks on D, but this offense is terrible with out him on the floor. It not like Bargs is getting Iso-ed every time down the floor. he is not the target.


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