Bargnani Dilemma - Page 5
Old 02-28-2011, 02:20 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Bosh didn't leave. He fulfilled his contract and then chose a very different opportunity as a free agent. He put his cards on the table when he signed for fewer years. Nobody was strung along. Colangelo had options.
Not really, because if Bosh had already decided to go with lebron in miami (few doubt it at this point), he would never had agreed to a S&T. And, according to Colangelo, the offers we got for a short-term rental last February were laughable.

To me that's the biggest issue with how he handled the whole thing. If he knew he's going to go to Miami no matter what, he should have approached colangelo about it. Or, at the very least, didn't lobby for us to sacrifice our future with turkoglu, for which he openly campaigned. Of course, there's the possibility that in the summer of 2009 Bosh still felt he can lead a team to a title given the right teammates.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:30 PM   #82 (permalink)
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no.... it's to look at this team as a rebuilding team that should acquire talent, and develop potential, while not panicking and trading away pieces just because a talented piece looks bad on a terrible team...

oh sorry, just trying to get this thread back on track...
And we agree on this....

Where we DISAGREE is when we talk about the merits of Bargnani as a piece of the rebuild.

I think that his lack of effort (or smarts of whatever you want to call it) is a detriment to our young team. I'd rather see guys out there who are going to fight for rebounds and at least ATTEMPT to play defense. There are players in the league (like Dirk and Love) who also shoot 3s.... and yet both of them have no problem going to the glass and the FT line. It isn't talent... it's EFFORT. And it's the lack of effort that kills me with this guy. As much as people want to rip on Bosh and question his motives at least there was no doubt that he was going to bring more than jumpshooting to the floor.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:50 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Just out of curiosity, is there another 20+ PPG scorer not on a rookie scale contract making 8 million dollars this season?
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:05 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Just out of curiosity, is there another 20+ PPG scorer not on a rookie scale contract making 8 million dollars this season?
That's like going to Miss Universe contest and judging the girls with the biggest tits. Its the overall package we are looking at!!! Yes Bargnani has some nice E cups, but if he looks like Lady Gaga, acts like Lindsay Lohan, and talks like Barry White, we ain't winning no contests.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:07 PM   #85 (permalink)
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maybe but there are only 13 players in the league scoring more points than bargs, so this is a good starting point imo.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:09 PM   #86 (permalink)
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That's like going to Miss Universe contest and judging the girls with the biggest tits. Its the overall package we are looking at!!! Yes Bargnani has some nice E cups, but if he looks like Lady Gaga, acts like Lindsay Lohan, and talks like Barry White, we ain't winning no contests.
Post of the month!!
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:13 PM   #87 (permalink)
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That's like going to Miss Universe contest and judging the girls with the biggest tits. Its the overall package we are looking at!!! Yes Bargnani has some nice E cups, but if he looks like Lady Gaga, acts like Lindsay Lohan, and talks like Barry White, we ain't winning no contests.
Haha.

But if you're only looking to tit $#@& her every once in a while in a dimly lit room, does it really matter about any of the other stuff?

Seriously though, it was an honest question.

Is there?
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:13 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Post of the month!!
Smart post no doubt but saying post of the month is like saying Bargs for MVP...
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:17 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Smart post no doubt but saying post of the month is like saying Bargs for MVP...
That's basically TORaptor's main premise!
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Old 02-28-2011, 04:29 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Not really, because if Bosh had already decided to go with lebron in miami (few doubt it at this point), he would never had agreed to a S&T. And, according to Colangelo, the offers we got for a short-term rental last February were laughable.

To me that's the biggest issue with how he handled the whole thing. If he knew he's going to go to Miami no matter what, he should have approached colangelo about it. Or, at the very least, didn't lobby for us to sacrifice our future with turkoglu, for which he openly campaigned. Of course, there's the possibility that in the summer of 2009 Bosh still felt he can lead a team to a title given the right teammates.
Colangelo didn't need Bosh pulling for Turk to make the decision to pursuit Turk. Bosh just helped get Turk's signature on the dotted line. If that's all the options you can think of that's a shame. I can think of how a full range of options should have been planned for from the day Bosh signed his contract onward. Never was it ever intimated that Colangelo expected Bosh to make his intentions crystal clear. And there really was no way to do so. I'll never understand how people can suggest that he could make up his mind to do something no matter what, when there was always the possibility that Miami didn't work out in terms of cap space, or that some other location proved more feasible. It was even possible that Lebron could have won in Cleveland and stayed there. For him to have behaved as though one option was frozen in time would have been nutty. He needed to look at his free agency as his free agency, or else he could have become a victim of changing circumstances. The Raptors needed to realize from day one that he was going to have more than just a max deal in Toronto to weigh, regardless of what he would be able to say. To expect an impending free agent to take options off the table for himself beforehand is not a wise expectation. Especially when you're suggesting that he take his biggest possible payday off the table.

Colangelo needed to make a move in a timeframe that allowed for more assets to come back. Of course it would have looked like he simply bowed to all the talk. Trying to keep Bosh here was the hero move in trying to stave off what seemed so inevitable for the rest of the league. It was the right thing symbolically, but without the ownership resources and the right luck, it was doomed to fail. There is a limit as to how high a team without multiple stars is going to go. If JO and Turkoglu are all you are going to be able to get, then it's probably better to cut bait sooner than latter. That way ahead must be clear as day now at least. I still think it should have at least had a place in Colangelo's head beforehand.
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Old 02-28-2011, 04:31 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Just out of curiosity, is there another 20+ PPG scorer not on a rookie scale contract making 8 million dollars this season?
How much was Mike James making when he was here? Should we have kept him? Just based on his play - imagine he was sane.
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Old 02-28-2011, 06:21 PM   #92 (permalink)
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who??????? Ajinca?
No seeing how we aren't going anywhere, why not try Ed and Amir, doesn't hurt to try new things out now. Downside you give up height and scoring
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Old 02-28-2011, 07:02 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Just out of curiosity, is there another 20+ PPG scorer not on a rookie scale contract making 8 million dollars this season?
I don't think anyone on this board is willing to admit that having a 22/5 player for 8 million dollars is a steal.

NBA contracts for Centers (by year)

^
numbers don't lie.
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Old 02-28-2011, 07:33 PM   #94 (permalink)
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I don't think anyone on this board is willing to admit that having a 22/5 player for 8 million dollars is a steal.

NBA contracts for Centers (by year)

^
numbers don't lie.
There are many different numbers, like numbers of Ws. NBA is a bit crazy with statistics -
"..he's the only one of five guys averaging 17ppg, 4apg and 1,3bpg in every other year 3 weeks after the all-star game for 4 seasons amongst the first round picks.."
even +/- can't tell the whole story.

I cannot see how if you show a video of Bargnani under the basket to Bargnani, it doesn't shock him.
I think the problem can be the same it was with Bosh (and I hope we won't discuss him on here any more), that Triano can't say anything to Bargnani, anything negative.
Imagine Phil Jackson or Doc Rivers letting Bargnani get away with these things!
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Old 02-28-2011, 08:17 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Anderson Varejao: 7.7million this season. 9 points and 9.7 rebounds per game.
Andrea Bargnani: 8.4 million this season. 22 points and 5.4 rebounds per game.
David Lee: 12million this season. 16 points and 9 rebounds per game.

..looks like a steal to me.

Triano isn`t the right coach period. Bargnani is lazy on defense and gets away with it because of his offensive game.
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Old 03-01-2011, 04:45 AM   #96 (permalink)
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I remember every fan hoping that Andrea would become a 21points and 7rebounds per game player. We are near those numbers and 90% are angry.
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Old 03-01-2011, 06:35 AM   #97 (permalink)
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but there are some very important differences you are overlooking

1. Bosh was paid 7 millions more than bargnani, and he was in line for a pay increase much steeper than the 1/yr due to andrea over the next 4 years. Bargnani is overpaid at 10, probably by 2-3 millions, but Bosh at 20 would have been overpaid by 6-8 millions.

2. Nobody claims that Bargnani is a player you build a winner around, he's just a piece that may or may not be part of a future elite team. Lots of Bosh fans claimed Bosh can lead a team to a title, all he needs is a wingman. The irony is that he now has the best two wings in the game, and he might still not win a title.

3. Bosh was good enough to keep this team away from a good lottery pick,while Bargnani clearly isn't ...

4. Bosh wasn't willing to go through a rebuilding process, which is not obviously necessary even to the biggest opponents (colangelo for one).

The point is that a team with Bosh as the best player would have been stuck in nowhere land for a few good years. A team with Bargnani can go through a rebuilding and at any point during the process you can trade the guy, if the rigth deal comes along.

And that's the key in my opinion - there's no point trading Bargnani just because he's a bad defender or whatnot. The ONLY reasons you trade him is because:
a. his trade value is highest
b. you get an offer you can't refuse

Until then, why hurry, it's not like we're going to the playoffs anytime soon (and let's better hope we don't, we need at least two seasons in the high lottery before we can begin winning).
+1 .... excellent post. Very balanced view of the situation.
Not sure how again, but a Bargs post becomes a Bosh vs Bargs.
Apples and Oranges folks.
Bosh is a good piece of a winning team, but too expensive.
Bargs 'may' be a good piece of a winning team. We are going no where fast .. no hurry to dump him. He is the least of our problems. After Bargs we have only one potential starter and thats DD ... the key word here is 'potential' starter.
Feels like we are looking for a quick fix and frankly there is none at this time.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:24 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Not really, because if Bosh had already decided to go with lebron in miami (few doubt it at this point), he would never had agreed to a S&T. And, according to Colangelo, the offers we got for a short-term rental last February were laughable.

To me that's the biggest issue with how he handled the whole thing. If he knew he's going to go to Miami no matter what, he should have approached colangelo about it. Or, at the very least, didn't lobby for us to sacrifice our future with turkoglu, for which he openly campaigned. Of course, there's the possibility that in the summer of 2009 Bosh still felt he can lead a team to a title given the right teammates.
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Colangelo didn't need Bosh pulling for Turk to make the decision to pursuit Turk. Bosh just helped get Turk's signature on the dotted line. If that's all the options you can think of that's a shame. I can think of how a full range of options should have been planned for from the day Bosh signed his contract onward. Never was it ever intimated that Colangelo expected Bosh to make his intentions crystal clear. And there really was no way to do so. I'll never understand how people can suggest that he could make up his mind to do something no matter what, when there was always the possibility that Miami didn't work out in terms of cap space, or that some other location proved more feasible. It was even possible that Lebron could have won in Cleveland and stayed there. For him to have behaved as though one option was frozen in time would have been nutty. He needed to look at his free agency as his free agency, or else he could have become a victim of changing circumstances. The Raptors needed to realize from day one that he was going to have more than just a max deal in Toronto to weigh, regardless of what he would be able to say. To expect an impending free agent to take options off the table for himself beforehand is not a wise expectation. Especially when you're suggesting that he take his biggest possible payday off the table.

Colangelo needed to make a move in a timeframe that allowed for more assets to come back. Of course it would have looked like he simply bowed to all the talk. Trying to keep Bosh here was the hero move in trying to stave off what seemed so inevitable for the rest of the league. It was the right thing symbolically, but without the ownership resources and the right luck, it was doomed to fail. There is a limit as to how high a team without multiple stars is going to go. If JO and Turkoglu are all you are going to be able to get, then it's probably better to cut bait sooner than latter. That way ahead must be clear as day now at least. I still think it should have at least had a place in Colangelo's head beforehand.
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Old 03-01-2011, 02:21 PM   #99 (permalink)
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Colangelo didn't need Bosh pulling for Turk to make the decision to pursuit Turk. Bosh just helped get Turk's signature on the dotted line. If that's all the options you can think of that's a shame. I can think of how a full range of options should have been planned for from the day Bosh signed his contract onward. Never was it ever intimated that Colangelo expected Bosh to make his intentions crystal clear. And there really was no way to do so. I'll never understand how people can suggest that he could make up his mind to do something no matter what, when there was always the possibility that Miami didn't work out in terms of cap space, or that some other location proved more feasible. It was even possible that Lebron could have won in Cleveland and stayed there. For him to have behaved as though one option was frozen in time would have been nutty. He needed to look at his free agency as his free agency, or else he could have become a victim of changing circumstances. The Raptors needed to realize from day one that he was going to have more than just a max deal in Toronto to weigh, regardless of what he would be able to say. To expect an impending free agent to take options off the table for himself beforehand is not a wise expectation. Especially when you're suggesting that he take his biggest possible payday off the table.

Colangelo needed to make a move in a timeframe that allowed for more assets to come back. Of course it would have looked like he simply bowed to all the talk. Trying to keep Bosh here was the hero move in trying to stave off what seemed so inevitable for the rest of the league. It was the right thing symbolically, but without the ownership resources and the right luck, it was doomed to fail. There is a limit as to how high a team without multiple stars is going to go. If JO and Turkoglu are all you are going to be able to get, then it's probably better to cut bait sooner than latter. That way ahead must be clear as day now at least. I still think it should have at least had a place in Colangelo's head beforehand.
you can't really plan for a team with Bosh and without bosh, it's one or the other. And while I give you that Bosh couldn't have been sure if Miami will work, I find it impossible to believe that Miami wasn't his primary option, with or without lebron. Given all that happened this summer, and his comments, he seems to care a LOT about image and media exposure and the like.

I think it's fairly naive to think that we had a real shot at keeping him here. We were probably his last option, and only because the extra money. And don't get me wrong, I don't blame him for it - it's not like he was sacrificing winning for fame, this team had no future with or without Bosh. Bosh leaving was best for all parties.

And maybe you are right, maybe he did tell Colangelo that unless we win 50 games or some other performance standard is met, he will bolt. Maybe Colangelo knew this, and still went for broke with Turkoglu.

One thing is certain, as long as Bosh proclaimed he wants to be here, it would have been mighty difficult for any GM to trade him. Especially if the offers (as Colangelo claimed) were sub-par.

Personally, I think Bosh wasn't upfront about it. I think he wanted to keep his options open in case Miami and other desired destinations wouldn't work, he didn't want to be traded in a contract year and risk compromising his standing (new role, new teammates - could lead to inferior stats). In a word, he was selfish.
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