Bargnani Dilemma - Page 4
Old 02-28-2011, 01:36 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Bosh didn't leave. He fulfilled his contract and then chose a very different opportunity as a free agent. He put his cards on the table when he signed for fewer years. Nobody was strung along. Colangelo had options. He also has options with regard to Bargnani. If in any case the concern for an individual player outweighs the need to build a well-balanced team, then success is going to be fleeting if it occurs at all.

Look at all the players that Utah has lost over the last fifteen years, with retirements, injuries, free agency. They had one losing season in all that time. We get so obsessed with the guys that "left" and questioning why, that we fail to see that nothing comes of guys that are here, and fail to ask why.
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Old 02-28-2011, 01:46 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Sorry...when Bosh moved on after fufilling his contractual obligations the The Toronto Raptors, he cited a lack of media exposure as one of the main factors for signing elsewhere. Which to me, is almost just as lame as quitting on your team because you disagree with management.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:11 PM   #63 (permalink)
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LX is correct in that Bosh didn't leave... he's still here... lol....

Yes, he did fulfill his contractual obligation, but if you're suggesting there isn't some moral obligation to conduct business under upstanding principles then we disagree. If we're supposed to blindly accept that Bosh was genuinely unsure about what his intentions were, then fine, I am absolutely wrong. I'd suggest it's foolish to think that Bosh made his decision to leave after the season, and his actions suggest that he never intended to re-sign with Toronto much like McGrady's FA situation.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:16 PM   #64 (permalink)
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LX is correct in that Bosh didn't leave... he's still here... lol....

Yes, he did fulfill his contractual obligation, but if you're suggesting there isn't some moral obligation to conduct business under upstanding principles then we disagree. If we're supposed to blindly accept that Bosh was genuinely unsure about what his intentions were, then fine, I am absolutely wrong. I'd suggest it's foolish to think that Bosh made his decision to leave after the season, and his actions suggest that he never intended to re-sign with Toronto much like McGrady's FA situation.
I feel the same, if he was really unsure, he would have for sure been back sooner to try and make a playoff push....fuck we were only one game out in the end and we were beat by the team that took the 8th spot right at the end of the season....with Bosh no where to be seen because he was prob looking at places down in south beach....you know the place where him and lebron took their talents
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:27 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Sorry...when Bosh moved on after fufilling his contractual obligations the The Toronto Raptors, he cited a lack of media exposure as one of the main factors for signing elsewhere. Which to me, is almost just as lame as quitting on your team because you disagree with management.
Yes, it's lame, but at the end of the day, you got you paid for in Bosh. You got 7 years and he never quit on you during the game.

VC, well, you didn't get what you paid for.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:27 PM   #66 (permalink)
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LX is correct in that Bosh didn't leave... he's still here... lol....

Yes, he did fulfill his contractual obligation, but if you're suggesting there isn't some moral obligation to conduct business under upstanding principles then we disagree. If we're supposed to blindly accept that Bosh was genuinely unsure about what his intentions were, then fine, I am absolutely wrong. I'd suggest it's foolish to think that Bosh made his decision to leave after the season, and his actions suggest that he never intended to re-sign with Toronto much like McGrady's FA situation.
What's the evidence?
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:42 PM   #67 (permalink)
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What's the evidence?
evidence thathis decision came before the end of the season?

Colangelo cited an increasingly unresponsive Bosh after the season ended, Bosh's media slip that they'd talked about it a long time ago, Bosh's tweets and post-signing comments about being in toronto....

We disagree, not a big deal, but I'd consider that quitting before the season ended given the evidence I consider relevant.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:51 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Funny, when Bosh was our best player, all I ever read was how we needed to trade him (even before the contract was up).

Now, when Bargs is our best player, there's a group saying, he's our best player, let's not trade him.

Odd. Very little consistency.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:57 PM   #69 (permalink)
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It's quite simple actually.

Bosh was being paid a max salary, wasn't really a max player and was eating up a ton of the payroll.

Bargnani is not being paid to be a max player, is not at that level and has a fairly reasonable contract.

You're welcome.
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Old 02-28-2011, 02:59 PM   #70 (permalink)
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evidence thathis decision came before the end of the season?

Colangelo cited an increasingly unresponsive Bosh after the season ended, Bosh's media slip that they'd talked about it a long time ago, Bosh's tweets and post-signing comments about being in toronto....

We disagree, not a big deal, but I'd consider that quitting before the season ended given the evidence I consider relevant.
And I've posted Bosh's last 5 games (before he got his face broken by Jamison) umpteen times before in rebuttal to this.

Once again... you just have to look at the game against GS (in which he tallied 44 & 13) as proof that Bosh wasn't mailing anything in at all.

You may not have liked the way that he left... but you can't question the effort that he gave when he was under contract to this team.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:02 PM   #71 (permalink)
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And I've posted Bosh's last 5 games (before he got his face broken by Jamison) umpteen times before in rebuttal to this.

Once again... you just have to look at the game against GS (in which he tallied 44 & 13) as proof that Bosh wasn't mailing anything in at all.

You may not have liked the way that he left... but you can't question the effort that he gave when he was under contract to this team.
I saw his effort more stat driven than win driven.... just my perspective.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:07 PM   #72 (permalink)
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on a per-dollar basis i like Bargnani a lot better. a lot better.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:07 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Bargs has more important things that concern him off the court. Such as: bitches, cuisine, and putting hits on mamalukes. It's the life of a made man.

Bosh on the other hand. Well...

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Old 02-28-2011, 03:08 PM   #74 (permalink)
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And I've posted Bosh's last 5 games (before he got his face broken by Jamison) umpteen times before in rebuttal to this.

Once again... you just have to look at the game against GS (in which he tallied 44 & 13) as proof that Bosh wasn't mailing anything in at all.You may not have liked the way that he left... but you can't question the effort that he gave when he was under contract to this team.
..and missing the winning shot...
Sorry I couldn't resist
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:09 PM   #75 (permalink)
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It's quite simple actually.

Bosh was being paid a max salary, wasn't really a max player and was eating up a ton of the payroll.

Bargnani is not being paid to be a max player, is not at that level and has a fairly reasonable contract.

You're welcome.
Were the Raps ever near the top of the league in terms of team payroll?

Franchise player or not, Bosh was certainly good enough to be a major building block for the franchise.... as long as he wasn't the ONLY piece here (which he was).

What's the solution? To consistently field a team of cheap-ass players who'll play for less than $10M/yr? Good luck keeping any kind of serious talent with that approach.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:12 PM   #76 (permalink)
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I saw his effort more stat driven than win driven.... just my perspective.
Meh. You could easily argue the same about Kobe... or Wade... or Dirk... or most of the great players in the league IMO.

He took the least amount of shots when compared to any top 15 scorer last season.. he wasn't a ballhog by any means.
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:12 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Funny, when Bosh was our best player, all I ever read was how we needed to trade him (even before the contract was up).

Now, when Bargs is our best player, there's a group saying, he's our best player, let's not trade him.

Odd. Very little consistency.
but there are some very important differences you are overlooking

1. Bosh was paid 7 millions more than bargnani, and he was in line for a pay increase much steeper than the 1/yr due to andrea over the next 4 years. Bargnani is overpaid at 10, probably by 2-3 millions, but Bosh at 20 would have been overpaid by 6-8 millions.

2. Nobody claims that Bargnani is a player you build a winner around, he's just a piece that may or may not be part of a future elite team. Lots of Bosh fans claimed Bosh can lead a team to a title, all he needs is a wingman. The irony is that he now has the best two wings in the game, and he might still not win a title.

3. Bosh was good enough to keep this team away from a good lottery pick,while Bargnani clearly isn't ...

4. Bosh wasn't willing to go through a rebuilding process, which is not obviously necessary even to the biggest opponents (colangelo for one).

The point is that a team with Bosh as the best player would have been stuck in nowhere land for a few good years. A team with Bargnani can go through a rebuilding and at any point during the process you can trade the guy, if the rigth deal comes along.

And that's the key in my opinion - there's no point trading Bargnani just because he's a bad defender or whatnot. The ONLY reasons you trade him is because:
a. his trade value is highest
b. you get an offer you can't refuse

Until then, why hurry, it's not like we're going to the playoffs anytime soon (and let's better hope we don't, we need at least two seasons in the high lottery before we can begin winning).
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:14 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Were the Raps ever near the top of the league in terms of team payroll?

Franchise player or not, Bosh was certainly good enough to be a major building block for the franchise.... as long as he wasn't the ONLY piece here (which he was).

What's the solution? To consistently field a team of cheap-ass players who'll play for less than $10M/yr? Good luck keeping any kind of serious talent with that approach.
no.... it's to look at this team as a rebuilding team that should acquire talent, and develop potential, while not panicking and trading away pieces just because a talented piece looks bad on a terrible team...

oh sorry, just trying to get this thread back on track...
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:18 PM   #79 (permalink)
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but there are some very important differences you are overlooking

1. Bosh was paid 7 millions more than bargnani, and he was in line for a pay increase much steeper than the 1/yr due to andrea over the next 4 years. Bargnani is overpaid at 10, probably by 2-3 millions, but Bosh at 20 would have been overpaid by 6-8 millions.

2. Nobody claims that Bargnani is a player you build a winner around, he's just a piece that may or may not be part of a future elite team. Lots of Bosh fans claimed Bosh can lead a team to a title, all he needs is a wingman. The irony is that he now has the best two wings in the game, and he might still not win a title.

3. Bosh was good enough to keep this team away from a good lottery pick,while Bargnani clearly isn't ...

4. Bosh wasn't willing to go through a rebuilding process, which is not obviously necessary even to the biggest opponents (colangelo for one).

The point is that a team with Bosh as the best player would have been stuck in nowhere land for a few good years. A team with Bargnani can go through a rebuilding and at any point during the process you can trade the guy, if the rigth deal comes along.

And that's the key in my opinion - there's no point trading Bargnani just because he's a bad defender or whatnot. The ONLY reasons you trade him is because:
a. his trade value is highest
b. you get an offer you can't refuse

Until then, why hurry, it's not like we're going to the playoffs anytime soon (and let's better hope we don't, we need at least two seasons in the high lottery before we can begin winning).
plus 1, except point number three is faulty..... Bosh had Bargnani on that team too.... Bargnani doesn't have Bosh this year.... so your premise is wrong.....

the good part is, your general argument couldn't be more right....
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Old 02-28-2011, 03:19 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Were the Raps ever near the top of the league in terms of team payroll?

Franchise player or not, Bosh was certainly good enough to be a major building block for the franchise.... as long as he wasn't the ONLY piece here (which he was).

What's the solution? To consistently field a team of cheap-ass players who'll play for less than $10M/yr? Good luck keeping any kind of serious talent with that approach.
No, the solution is to not pay a second tier player to be a max guy and we didn't, so everything is going according to plan. That's why people wanted him traded.

Great gif by oneiron btw. It just goes to show Bosh's commitment to winning and being the best. He spent the summer before a contract year getting in the best physical condition of his life and the next frolicking in the pool for GQ magazine.
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