Bargnani Dilemma - Page 2
Old 02-26-2011, 07:10 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Sam Mitchell was a hardass coach that preached defence and rebounding, but he also failed to get Bargnani to do both.

My point is that the player more at fault than the coach.
I agree to a certain extent, that was more just a dig at Jeff.

But just the same it doesnt matter how hard a player tries if they have no idea where to be or what to do in certain situations on the court, and the most of these guys have never really been taught defense.
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:35 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I would not blame the defensive coaching schemes for Bargnani's poor defense. He's the fricking center and most of the time he's nowhere near the rim.
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I would not blame the defensive coaching schemes for Bargnani's poor defense. He's the fricking center and most of the time he's nowhere near the rim.
And who's supposed to hold him accountable and actually coach him?
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:54 PM   #24 (permalink)
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He's often guarding opposite 4, he's the one going out contesting shots when rotation is late, he's not the one battling under the rim.
Hey, he's a PF!
Just put a PF beside his name in the boxscore and magically he'll be doind (not that good, ok) what a pf should do on D
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:57 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Every two weeks somebody new starts a new thread bashing AB.... it's a freaking rebuilding year.... and he's by far not the only poor defender on the team..... get over it.... calling for his trade is pointless and foolish at this time. So much hate... where is the patience and positive outlook for this team? No wonder Colangelo never wanted to rebuild, listening to all the whining would drive someone mad.
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:59 PM   #26 (permalink)
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And who's supposed to hold him accountable and actually coach him?
The center's job is to protect the rim. That's a fact. There's no way our coaches don't know that.

He just doesn't do it man, he's a puss most of the time.

That being said though, I thought he played a great game against the Bulls on the defensive end with great intensity, minus a few horrible defensive plays.

Since I think Bargs is here to stay, we'll see how he does when we have a better defender at the point, and maybe the three.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:10 AM   #27 (permalink)
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A young team follows its leader. The leaders on this team is Calderon and Bargnani. To kill the snake, chop off its head.
On a rather philosophical note: where does the snake's head ends and its tail begins?
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:10 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Our team has almost no defensive talent at all. All of our starters except James Johnson are below average defenders. Theres no way a starting rotation like that is going to be successful on defence even with a good coach. We need to improve our defence at all of the positions to become successful.
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Old 02-27-2011, 04:17 AM   #29 (permalink)
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In Toronto starting five who are the good individual and team defenders? Calderon? Derozan? Why the opponents penetrate easily? Why they create easy one vs one near the rim? Andrea is always the last, the one posterized, he is our best player and so everybody focus their anger on him, but it's very superficial. You all love Derozan now. When Bargnani won't be here (I hope soon, as Andrea's fan) and DD will be a 20ppg player, you gonna hate him. That's the angry fan way of thinking.
Yes, Andrea is not a good defender. But he balances with great offensive skills and scoring many points. Can you say the same for our other players? No.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:03 AM   #30 (permalink)
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In Toronto starting five who are the good individual and team defenders? Calderon? Derozan? Why the opponents penetrate easily? Why they create easy one vs one near the rim? Andrea is always the last, the one posterized, he is our best player and so everybody focus their anger on him, but it's very superficial. You all love Derozan now. When Bargnani won't be here (I hope soon, as Andrea's fan) and DD will be a 20ppg player, you gonna hate him. That's the angry fan way of thinking.
Yes, Andrea is not a good defender. But he balances with great offensive skills and scoring many points. Can you say the same for our other players? No.
+1 on the angry fan syndrome for bad teams..... the issue is we always think we're closer than we actually are.... watching this team beat Chicago makes us question why we can't do it more consistently, why couldn't we be a playoff team.... but until we can play up to others and not play down to bad teams, we're very far away. Rebuilds aren't a 1-2 year project.... even with a Blake Griffin.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:21 AM   #31 (permalink)
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if we get 4 very good defensive players at the positions, you can probably get by with bargnani's shortcomings, he's a bad defender in some scenarios, but he can do a decent job in others. Good defensive teams know how to hide deficiencies and emphasize stregnths.

Short of that, Bargnani can't be a part of a good team despite his amazing offensive skills. This season he's turned into one of the best offensive big men in the league (4s and 5s). Despite the fact that we have almost no 3pt shooters and no second option on offense (demar barely qualifies for that role in 2011 and was useless in the first two months), he manages to score quite a lot of points with a decent TS%. If he had better shot selection, his TS% could easily be elite, but he destroys his percentages with those occasional 5 for 17 nights games ...

But again, as good as he is on offense, it will be very difficult to build an elite defensive team around him (and you can't win a title if you're not at least top 10 in defense). Not saying it can't be done, but it might be a easier to trade him. It really depends on what his market is out there.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:35 AM   #32 (permalink)
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bargnani is fine as long we can pair him with a proper active C. Chandler or McGee would be ideal. Hopefully BC gets us a player like that, or Ed davis steps up.
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Old 02-27-2011, 10:49 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I didn't mind watching the Chicago game... not sure there is an issue.
That game was luck more then anything......we shot 58% for the game, and chicago was shooting under 50 and it was still down to the wire.....although entertaining (and it was there ) it was still blind luck. I must have said 20 times that we weren't going to keep it close, but i was wrong
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Old 02-27-2011, 11:12 AM   #34 (permalink)
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On a rather philosophical note: where does the snake's head ends and its tail begins?
I like that.

On a biological note, you cut the snake's head where the brain resides. The team needs a new mentality. No defense accountability but all the offensive touches. Time to cut off the brain, time to cut off Bargnani.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:20 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Bargnani doesn't have his head in the game defensively unless he's playing with some passion offensively.

He has to play with the type of emotion he played with against the Heat every single night. That's what all-stars do.

Unfortunately it seems most nights that he is concerned with his performance offensively and not winning. When his shots aren't falling, his head just isn't in the game and he's completely unreliable. And to be honest, even when his shots are falling he's often unreliable.

Bad defense isn't the problem, it's the unreliability on defense.

If you're a bad defender but your teammates can rely on you for effort and focus, they can make up for it. You can have the 4 best defenders in the world, and if the 5th one is completely unreliable, they aren't winning anything.

Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki...some would call these guys bad defenders and they might be right. But they're reliable defenders.

Last edited by bjjs; 02-27-2011 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:31 PM   #36 (permalink)
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good point. Watch Dirk tonight. He's not going to scare anyone too much. But his head is going to be on where he should be. He is going to be sure to see his man and the ball. That allows for other good defenders to look good. Bargnani has spent five years making other defenders look bad.
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Old 02-27-2011, 12:43 PM   #37 (permalink)
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I've been a Bargs supporter since his first day with the Raps. My issue with Bargs isn't his offense or defense ... it's simple for me - his effort and aggression needs to be at full throtle for him to become an effective starter. This won't make him an elite defender, but at least he will contribute with the correct passion expected of any starter on an elite team. I also want to mention that I've noticed a tick up in his intensity the last 2 games on both ends of the court.
If he can demonstrate this behavioral requirement thru to year end ... he is then a keeper. If not, this behavioral problem will continue to be a cancer if he is a starter. He then is only suited to being a gun slinger as a 6th man on a good team.
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:55 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I've been a Bargs supporter since his first day with the Raps. My issue with Bargs isn't his offense or defense ... it's simple for me - his effort and aggression needs to be at full throtle for him to become an effective starter. This won't make him an elite defender, but at least he will contribute with the correct passion expected of any starter on an elite team. I also want to mention that I've noticed a tick up in his intensity the last 2 games on both ends of the court.
If he can demonstrate this behavioral requirement thru to year end ... he is then a keeper. If not, this behavioral problem will continue to be a cancer if he is a starter. He then is only suited to being a gun slinger as a 6th man on a good team.
I won't argue this point... it's true that he needs to progress and carry that intensity consistently... let's remember he's on 25, not young or old, and that he has continued to get better every year. Here's hoping this next offseason makes us all believers that he is capable of bringing it every game.

DD and AB bringing their best stuff every game will go a long way toward this team being a competitive one...
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:06 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I won't argue this point... it's true that he needs to progress and carry that intensity consistently... let's remember he's on 25, not young or old, and that he has continued to get better every year. Here's hoping this next offseason makes us all believers that he is capable of bringing it every game.

DD and AB bringing their best stuff every game will go a long way toward this team being a competitive one...
has he got better this year? i thought he was just taking more shots.

the only thing that has got better is his spectating on defence.
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:33 PM   #40 (permalink)
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bargs just doesn't give the effort, if he actually tried maybe it would make more of a difference. take jose for example, hes been trying hard on defense and even though he gets burnt once in a while he is less of a liability than he has been the past few seasons.
we need to move Bargs to the bench, he can still give us 20 points a night.
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