Bargnani: "Bryan is going to move him no doubt" - Page 4
Old 12-18-2012, 12:14 PM   #61 (permalink)
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There may not be a SF available... but PM can and does play a little three at least.
OK, lemme clarify: I am worried about role definitions.

For instance, if we are not blowing this team up, we appear to have our future starting centre in Val and, if Ed's for real, our future starting PF in Davis. Amir is OK coming off the bench and will do so until his contract runs out. If you trade for Millsap, are you going to start him? If so, it messes up the roles above. If not, is he going to be OK coming off the bench behind Davis? Or, if you intend to bring Ed off the bench, will you stunt his development?
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:26 PM   #62 (permalink)
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OK, lemme clarify: I am worried about role definitions.

For instance, if we are not blowing this team up, we appear to have our future starting centre in Val and, if Ed's for real, our future starting PF in Davis. Amir is OK coming off the bench and will do so until his contract runs out. If you trade for Millsap, are you going to start him? If so, it messes up the roles above. If not, is he going to be OK coming off the bench behind Davis? Or, if you intend to bring Ed off the bench, will you stunt his development?
I see your point, but I'm interested if we're bringing in a talent upgrade in Millsap. If Ed gets stunted, that's on Ed.

Love Millsap's game. This team could use his skill, versatility, experience and swagger. Upgrade talent and shift pieces around later. Maybe it's an Ed deal to get a younger SF.... trading Bargnani and/or Lowry means salary coming in has to be high and SF's makng that much that are good may not be available. Improvise.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:31 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I see your point, but I'm interested if we're bringing in a talent upgrade in Millsap. If Ed gets stunted, that's on Ed.

Love Millsap's game. This team could use his skill, versatility, experience and swagger. Upgrade talent and shift pieces around later. Maybe it's an Ed deal to get a younger SF.... trading Bargnani and/or Lowry means salary coming in has to be high and SF's makng that much that are good may not be available. Improvise.
Sure thing, and it's not like I don't like Millsap. I'd just like for them to have a fucking plan for a change and stick to it for at least a while. I am so tired if improvisations every single bloody season...
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:56 PM   #64 (permalink)
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There is logic in dealing Millsap for them, given that he's an expiring, has turned down an extension offer, and has signed elsewhere before (in Portland, only to be matched as an RFA).... but expirings don't seem to bring as much back as onced thought. A lot of teams paying for rentals now are draft pick poor and asset depleted with all of the big three type team management. As for Bargnani making them worse, I disagree, respectfully of course. They have Favours, Jefferson and Kanter and I think AB might offer a very good contrast to those three. Maybe the deal suggested wasn't right, but I think many on here undervalue what AB can bring to a team that doesn't also have two brutal perimeter defenders beside him.

Just as I believe Jose can be solid here, teams are able to cover for one maybe two weaker defenders. Unfortunately our perspective at RF is skewed because we've been covering for four weaker defenders regularly. Even our defensive players aren't as defensive as some think. We've got a culture of softness and it's permeated. Bargnani would fit in much nicer on a team that has a stronger system and a more demanding culture.
He had no choice but to turn down that extension they offered him because that was the max allowable at the time under the CBA.

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The Salt Lake Tribune reports that the Utah Jazz’s contract extension offer to forward Paul Millsap was turned down. Millsap reportedly is planning to enter free agency next summer: “The sturdy six-year veteran was offered a three-year extension worth about $25 million, which is the maximum extension Millsap can receive under the new collective bargaining agreement. The proposed deal features an annual 7.5 percent raise, would kick in after Millsap’s current contract expires June 2013, and could keep the career Jazzman in a Utah uniform through June 2016.

It looks like they should trade him seeing how he's headed for free agency. I don't think Bargnani is the right piece to get back. Favors is definitely going to get more playing time by locking up the 4 spot. I would look elsewhere.
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:09 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Sure thing, and it's not like I don't like Millsap. I'd just like for them to have a fucking plan for a change and stick to it for at least a while. I am so tired if improvisations every single bloody season...
in all fairness, you can't really have a plan that targets individual players, because it's not a one-way street. Plus, things fluctuate so much and we don't really know what we have, is David our PF of the future? Is JV our center, demar our SG or lowry our PG?

we'll know a lot more by the end of the season.

but I agree that Milsap is not a priority, he's a good player, but not as great at SF - and that position is the one most lacking. All our efforts should focus on upgrading the SF position this summer.
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:02 PM   #66 (permalink)
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well.. I think Raptors were addressing the sf position during the draft, but GS got Barnes, so it kind of delayed things at that position
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:29 PM   #67 (permalink)
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No way Calderon gets traded if Gasol is heading to Toronto.....Jose will take a cut to play with his Spanish friend.

Looks like Lowry will be the odd man out. Its a stretch but im due to get it wrong for a change lol.....been dead nuts right sine 2007 !!!!!
Dude you must be in construction or auto parts manufacturing to use a phrase like Dead Nuts. It's old Canadian. Hope you're right too!
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:56 PM   #68 (permalink)
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. The Raptors should trade Andrea Bargnani.
A. Agree strongly.
B. Agree somewhat.
C. Disagree somewhat.
D. Disagree strongly.






Ford: A. Agree strongly. Bargnani has been an example of a player whose team internally values him more than other teams have for years. This has been Raptors GM Bryan Colangelo's project and after years of false starts, it's pretty clear he will never live up to his promise. I don't think there's any team dying to take on his deal, but if the Raptors are willing to offer some of their young players in return, the equation may change quickly.

Ham: B. Agree somewhat. Bargnani is talented, but he really needs the right situation to flourish, and I'm not sure he can find that again in Toronto. The Raptors have compiled some nice complementary pieces in Kyle Lowry, DeMar DeRozan and Jonas Valanciunas, but Bargnani isn't a franchise guy, and you have to wonder if both the team and the player in this situation wouldn't benefit greatly from a change.

McGowan: A. Agree strongly. Bargnani seems to have openly quit on his team, but who wants to pay $23 million over the next two seasons for an inefficient power forward who can't guard anyone? The Raptors might have to package him with a more enticing asset if they want to get rid of him.

Schmidt: C. Disagree somewhat. His value will never be lower. If he can be a part of a larger deal, such as one that could bring in a Gasol, then sure, let him go. But don't just punt Bargs for the sake of starting over. This season is a loss anyway, so the Raptors might as well let him try to boost his value.

Soriano: A. Agree strongly. While still young, Bargnani's game has plateaued in Toronto. Also, his poor defense and single-focused offensive approach require too specific a team to surround him, but he's not elite enough to justify being a building block who shapes their roster construction. A change of scenery would do both sides some good
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:07 AM   #69 (permalink)
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Heres an idea.... cant we just move him to Small Forward? We get get to keep the davis/JV frontcourt whilst still having the scoring of bargs.... I dont knwo to me it makes sense, especially since Bargs' defence 1v1 is actually quite good... its in the post where he sucks shit.

Dont hate its just an idea hahah, plus then when he camps on the 3 it wont be so bad since he can actually hit them without having to run in like usually does making a big mess. Shame he's gotten overweight but i guess you can lose it to regain his speed needed to take on the stars
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:13 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Heres an idea.... cant we just move him to Small Forward? We get get to keep the davis/JV frontcourt whilst still having the scoring of bargs.... I dont knwo to me it makes sense, especially since Bargs' defence 1v1 is actually quite good... its in the post where he sucks shit.

Dont hate its just an idea hahah, plus then when he camps on the 3 it wont be so bad since he can actually hit them without having to run in like usually does making a big mess. Shame he's gotten overweight but i guess you can lose it to regain his speed needed to take on the stars
Could work when other teams have bigger/slower 3s (Wallace/Galinari, Pierce, MWP etc.) But watching him try to guard guys like James / Gay would be horrifying.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:13 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Heres an idea.... cant we just move him to Small Forward? We get get to keep the davis/JV frontcourt whilst still having the scoring of bargs.... I dont knwo to me it makes sense, especially since Bargs' defence 1v1 is actually quite good... its in the post where he sucks shit.

Dont hate its just an idea hahah, plus then when he camps on the 3 it wont be so bad since he can actually hit them without having to run in like usually does making a big mess. Shame he's gotten overweight but i guess you can lose it to regain his speed needed to take on the stars
I like the idea and have advocated it for a while, but then what do you with Landry and Alan Anderson. Anderson is playing lights out right now.

Would be worth experimenting though..

I don't think he will be traded this year, just my intuition.

If the team continues its strong play and get's back into the race, BC might think Bargnani's added production would only benefit the team and will probably keep him at least to see how this season plays out.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:20 AM   #72 (permalink)
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the experiment has been tried and it was a failure. a younger Bargnani played a fair bit of sf in the early years and was routinely exposed by faster players. i hate to think what the bulkier, older Bargnani would look like trying to scramble around the perimeter on defence.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:17 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Could work when other teams have bigger/slower 3s (Wallace/Galinari, Pierce, MWP etc.) But watching him try to guard guys like James / Gay would be horrifying.
Ha ha ha ha ha..
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:22 AM   #74 (permalink)
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People are so naive. They think the other team will go out of their way to accommodate the only favourable match-up for us.
Yeah, they give the ball to MWP on iso and say go!
Haven't you people seen enough in the last three games to get informed about the difference in defence without a watcher on a team?!
Stop trying to find excuses for AB. It can't work. Get over it and take his picture of your wall!

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Old 12-19-2012, 06:49 AM   #75 (permalink)
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There is no experiment worth trying with Bargnani outside of those with medical purposes. He could provide useful insight into how to live with such a tiny heart.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:15 AM   #76 (permalink)
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There is no experiment worth trying with Bargnani outside of those with medical purposes. He could provide useful insight into how to live with such a tiny heart.
he's like all 3 wizard of oz characters rolled into one - no brains, no heart and much too shy - and colangelo is dorothy, such a long way from home...
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:25 AM   #77 (permalink)
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hahaha at the last two posts.

well played sirs.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:42 AM   #78 (permalink)
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I think Bargs needs some good games before he is tradeable at this point.

So, he'll need to recover from injury, which will take time, and he'll need to find a role on the team he can be successful in.

I'm hoping he comes back as a sixth man and has success in that role.

I have no problem with Bargnani as a sixth man that Casey can sub in to torch second units and certain match ups.

If Bargnani can accept a reduced role and succeed as a sixth man, I see no imminent need for a trade.

I hope that the team tries this option instead of just shipping him out when his value is lowest.

Besides, Bargs might not even be fully recovered by the trade deadline, and in that case he shouldn't be traded until the off season at the earliest.

Last edited by EggsToTheBBQ; 12-19-2012 at 09:48 AM.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:03 PM   #79 (permalink)
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2. The Raptors finally seem ready to deal former No. 1 pick Andrea Bargnani, but what can they reasonably expect to get for him?

RM: At this point, trading Bargnani amounts to a salvage mission. His trade value is certainly low, but only because Toronto has passed up so many more opportune times to deal him. Bargnani upsets a lot of what the Raptors hope to be, and yet a four-year low in scoring (16 points per game), along with shooting marks (39.8 percent from the field and 31.9 percent from three-point range) that approach the worst of his career, make worthwhile deals hard to come by.

That’s why packaging Bargnani with pending free agent Jose Calderon does make some sense, even if doing so requires the Raptors to take back some heavy contracts. Calderon is a useful player for Toronto at this stage in its rebuild, but this could be GM Bryan Colangelo’s last chance to get something for a player who will surely be gone after the season. Better to pull some value from Calderon and Bargnani both than none at all, particularly considering that the Raptors are unlikely to have much cap room until 2014 unless they make some fairly considerable cuts via trade. In that, I see no problem with Toronto’s taking a chance on a potential Gasol deal, if such an offer comes to pass, or any well-compensated gamble provided that any contract it receives expires before 2014. What may end up happening is that the Raps foot the bill for another team’s mistake while also grabbing a prospect or pick for their trouble, though it’s hard to pin down which players/teams might fill that hypothetical scenario.

BG: I’ve never been high on Bargnani and his season has been a mess in every conceivable way. If the poor shooting, lackluster effort and more three-pointers attempted per game (4.5) than rebounds (4.3) didn’t dissuade potential suitors, Bargnani has been busy off the court, appearing indifferent at best to trade talk, reportedly getting called out in a locker-room meeting by his teammates and then threatening legal action against an Italian journalist with whom he conducted an interview that he claims was reported improperly. Is anyone surprised that the Raptors have nearly as many wins (3) in the week they’ve played without Bargnani than they had in 21 games with him (4)? That was a rhetorical question. No one is surprised. The Raptors/Bargnani/Bryan Colangelo triumvirate has the feel of a situation that’s run its course.

The hang-up is that Bargnani might be the one big name who has submarined his trade value even more than Gasol this year. Unless he magically comes back from his elbow injury a totally different player, trading him is addition by subtraction at worst for the Raptors given his eight-figure contract over the next one or two years. Any assets they get in return (ideally picks and expiring contracts) would just be icing on the cake; the only requirement in moving him is taking back less guaranteed (or potentially guaranteed through a player option) money. There’s probably a deal-seeker out there willing to buy low and hope that a change of scenery will produce better production and effort.
Pau Gasol, Andrea Bargnani, J.J. Redick, others on the NBA trade block | The Point Forward - SI.com
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:03 PM   #80 (permalink)
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5. Which NBA player just flat-out needs to be traded by the deadline?

BG: You mentioned him earlier, but the guy I want to see moved for everyone’s benefit is Raptors point guard Jose Calderon. Him staying put past the deadline is just a lose/lose/lose for the Raptors, for him and for the other teams who could use a very capable and experienced point guard. The motives for Calderon being OK with a move are obvious: he hasn’t played in the postseason since 2008, he’s 31 so his clock is ticking, he has no reason to re-sign with the Raptors after they committed to Kyle Lowry and he won’t play a meaningful game between the deadline and the offseason given how poor Toronto’s record has been this season.

The Raptors are similarly motivated to cash out on him. Look at what they did with Leandro Barbosa last season. In both cases, the writing was on the wall for a veteran who could benefit a team looking to make a playoff push. Here, Calderon brings real value as a player capable of handling big minutes, whereas Barbosa brought a narrower skillset and bench depth. Barbosa netted the Raptors a second-round pick; Calderon should bring them much more. Letting Calderon leave in free agency would be one of those quiet mistakes that bad teams make. Raptors GM Bryan Colangelo has appeared desperate in recent weeks, so the chances that he finds a way to get something back for Calderon seem better than not.

There should be no lack of interest in Calderon. Playoff teams can always use a point guard who does a solid job of taking care of the ball and can knock down three-pointers. Calderon’s $10.6 million contract figure will limit trade possibilities to a degree, primarily because the Raptors shouldn’t accept any bad deals in return under any circumstances. But he would be an excellent addition for any team that could use help at the point now and especially to those teams interested in building a relationship in advance of attempting to sign him (at a much lower contract figure) this summer.

RM: Calderon is a great choice, and I’d love to see him moved solely because he’s served out most of his Toronto tenure as a fan base punching bag. His lack of flashy playmaking and characteristically porous defense make him an easy target, but I’ve long found value in Calderon’s efficient caretaking of the offense. A change of scenery might help some fans see Calderon’s game in a new light, and at this stage in his career he is legitimately best served as a low-risk backup.

But another player I wouldn’t mind seeing traded this season is Orlando’s J.J. Redick, who seems to have all of the qualities of a deadline-day target. He plays for a team that, while impressive in its efforts thus far, ultimately can’t make best use of his game. He’s in the final year of his deal on a team that really has no business re-signing him with so much extraneous salary already on the books. He does a little of everything, but has great specific value in helping to space the floor with accurate shooting and clever curls. His presence isn’t a defensive concession, and he can handle the ball somewhat reliably. That’s an incredible package of skills that shouldn’t take a king’s ransom to acquire. Everyone would win in such a scenario, with Redick — who could soon move from the plucky-but-grounded Magic to a legitimate playoff team — the greatest victor of all.
SI
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