Bargnani blames struggles on fatigue - Page 5
Old 10-16-2012, 12:21 AM   #81 (permalink)
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Bargnani's rebounds didn't count towards team rebounds? It's a team game. Kleiza got rebounds too....
Never said it wasn't a team game. Just saying Amir, ED and Gray were the best rebounders on the team - %age wise, and taking into account their /game #s and their mpg. Also, Bargs' absence helped the raps do better rebounding wise.
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:38 AM   #82 (permalink)
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Never said it wasn't a team game. Just saying Amir, ED and Gray were the best rebounders on the team - %age wise, and taking into account their /game #s and their mpg. Also, Bargs' absence helped the raps do better rebounding wise.
With Bargnani, the Raps outrebounded their opponents by 3.3%. Without him they outrebounded their opponents by 3.9%. Hardly an earth-shattering difference. That's a full 0.27 rebounds per game.

All while Bargnani playing seems to improve the team's TS% from .507 to .530, with their opponents' barely budging from .523 to .524. Just saying, he's not really appearing to hurt the team on the boards (or defensively), and considering how much he helps the offence, it always amazes me how little slack is cut him elsewhere.
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Old 10-16-2012, 11:58 AM   #83 (permalink)
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With Bargnani, the Raps outrebounded their opponents by 3.3%. Without him they outrebounded their opponents by 3.9%. Hardly an earth-shattering difference. That's a full 0.27 rebounds per game.

All while Bargnani playing seems to improve the team's TS% from .507 to .530, with their opponents' barely budging from .523 to .524. Just saying, he's not really appearing to hurt the team on the boards (or defensively), and considering how much he helps the offence, it always amazes me how little slack is cut him elsewhere.
I just said rebounding wise. Also, what other starting PFs who play 30 mpg or more average less than 7 rpg? The only player I can think of is a 2nd year Nowitzki or a 33-34 year old Nowitzki.

I'm also curious to see what Bargs' stop %age was last year.

Also, apparently if you critique a player and give other players some credit you get a downvote. I'm sorry I'm not a homer.

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Old 10-16-2012, 01:26 PM   #84 (permalink)
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I just said rebounding wise. Also, what other starting PFs who play 30 mpg or more average less than 7 rpg? The only player I can think of is a 2nd year Nowitzki or a 33-34 year old Nowitzki.

I'm also curious to see what Bargs' stop %age was last year.

Also, apparently if you critique a player and give other players some credit you get a downvote. I'm sorry I'm not a homer.
you're right, and if the playoffs were determined by how many rebounds your 7ft players have, we'd be in trouble... luckily the goal is actually win the game and that's where bargnani's impact has been major and verifiable - just check our record with and without him the past 2 seasons.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:38 PM   #85 (permalink)
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I just said rebounding wise. Also, what other starting PFs who play 30 mpg or more average less than 7 rpg? The only player I can think of is a 2nd year Nowitzki or a 33-34 year old Nowitzki.

I'm also curious to see what Bargs' stop %age was last year.

Also, apparently if you critique a player and give other players some credit you get a downvote. I'm sorry I'm not a homer.
That guy just proved your argument invalid, used and abused.

Goodnight and godspeed
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:45 PM   #86 (permalink)
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I just said rebounding wise. Also, what other starting PFs who play 30 mpg or more average less than 7 rpg? The only player I can think of is a 2nd year Nowitzki or a 33-34 year old Nowitzki.

I'm also curious to see what Bargs' stop %age was last year.

Also, apparently if you critique a player and give other players some credit you get a downvote. I'm sorry I'm not a homer.
Rebounding wise, there was almost zero impact between him playing versus not playing. Was my point.

And my other point was that although he does indeed have some pretty pitiful individual rebounding numbers (a dead horse which has been beaten time and time again, mind you), the stats show that the team is NOT in fact all that much better at rebounding when he doesn't play. So, on that note, what exactly is the relevance of the number of rebounds Bargnani gets as an individual if it does not impact the team's overall rebounding?

And the point of bringing up those other effects (neutral defense and positive offense) is to point out how much of a positive impact he has in other areas of the game relative to perception - and to question this fanbase's fixation on his individual rebounding, when it doesn't have nearly as much impact on the team as other areas of his game seem to.

And as for the stop %, I ask again, regardless of how he performs individually, if the team is no better when he sits, does it matter?
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:47 PM   #87 (permalink)
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you're right, and if the playoffs were determined by how many rebounds your 7ft players have, we'd be in trouble... luckily the goal is actually win the game and that's where bargnani's impact has been major and verifiable - just check our record with and without him the past 2 seasons.
Its still a losing record with him or without him. Lets face it, after six seasons in the league, we still don't know if he's still going to show up each game. We know he's going to chuck up his shots to get his 20 points, but we still don't if he going to put up any resistance in his help defence or body up to get his rebounds. When you don't know if your best player is going to show up, you are a lottery team just like the last two seasons.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:54 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Rebounding wise, there was almost zero impact between him playing versus not playing. Was my point.

And my other point was that although he does indeed have some pretty pitiful individual rebounding numbers (a dead horse which has been beaten time and time again, mind you), the stats show that the team is NOT in fact all that much better at rebounding when he doesn't play. So, on that note, what exactly is the relevance of the number of rebounds Bargnani gets as an individual if it does not impact the team's overall rebounding?

And the point of bringing up those other effects (neutral defense and positive offense) is to point out how much of a positive impact he has in other areas of the game relative to perception - and to question this fanbase's fixation on his individual rebounding, when it doesn't have nearly as much impact on the team as other areas of his game seem to.

And as for the stop %, I ask again, regardless of how he performs individually, if the team is no better when he sits, does it matter?
I read an article last week comparing opponents points scoring per 100 possesions, and apparently the opponents score more often when Bargnani is on the floor as compared to when he is off the floor. Can you check on that stat.
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Old 10-16-2012, 02:31 PM   #89 (permalink)
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There's a difference between almost no impact and no impact.

Rebounding matters because if Bargs wants to make an all star team/make that next step, he needs to improve his rebounding. right now he's a scorer. There've been very few (if any) PFs or bigs in the league who've been putrid rebounding wise and have been very good on d and on offense. There are many PFs out there who are good offensively and good on the glass, then there are the others who are good on the glass and good defensively (usually paired with an offensive beast at C or a team where the guards and SF are the primary options on offense). Then once in a while we get a true beast at PF - ie. KG who is a beast offensively, very good rebounder and a huge influence on his team's d. Also, rebounding is an ESSENTIAL SKILL for a PF.

Bargs' win shares/48 mins, his off. and def. rating aren't that great - throughout his career.

I hope Bargs does what he did in that small sample size last season, however, it's not a guarantee. He still has a lot of work to do. He is the primary option on this team, yes, however, it doesn't mean he should be put on a pedestal. Hopefully he can improve his D and rebounding (7/game isn't asking a lot) and be efficient on offense. I'm not expecting him to be a god, just if he is being hyped so much by the team, coach, etc he must show it.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:40 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Again, I just want to repeat that I am not in the least bit concerned with his individual stop %, how the team does with him on vs off the floor (on vs off stats miss a lot due to matchups), his individual rebounding or efficiency...

If the team rebounds just as well (and if you want to quibble over a 1/4 rebound per game, then I don't know how we can hope to have a reasonable conversation), scores better, defends just as well, with him in the lineup as out of it, then he is a positive contributor.

You say rebounding matters if Bargs wants to take a next step, etc, etc, but there is no evidence of that. Taking the next step is getting his team to win. Individual accolades should mean nothing to him, or you either. And based on the past, Bargnani is NOT hurting this team in the rebounding or defense battles, certainly not as significantly as his critics would suggest, and what (debatable) harm he does he is clearly more than made up in his offensive contributions.

Again, if he was better, it would be better. Of course. But he is hardly the problem people make him out to be.

Also, I don't see the hype from the coach, team, etc, argument. The coach has made clear he is their best player (and he is - that's a commentary on the team rather than the player) and the GM has been clear in the past that Bargnani is ideally a 2nd or 3rd best player on a team and is paid as such.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:11 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Dan, if people here can't simply watch a game and see how effective he is for this team, don't waste time trying to convince them. Yes, we would all love to see better rebounding from him and yes, its quite irritating. That aside, he's fine.

People calling him a franchise guy....stfu, Toronto has never had a franchise player, never. Vince Carter was getting there but came up short and fizzled. If you continue to compare good players to the elite, you will continue to be disappointed....
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:20 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Its still a losing record with him or without him.
so what's your point, all players on losing teams are useless???

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Lets face it, after six seasons in the league, we still don't know if he's still going to show up each game. We know he's going to chuck up his shots to get his 20 points, but we still don't if he going to put up any resistance in his help defence or body up to get his rebounds. When you don't know if your best player is going to show up, you are a lottery team just like the last two seasons.
this is a valid point, and obviously the general hope is that he will become a consistent player. Of course, this has nothing to do with rebounding, which was your original point. And, hopefully, he will not be our best player 3 years from now, JV and our future SF could surpass him in that role. As your 3rd best guy, you could do a lot worse.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:51 PM   #93 (permalink)
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(and he is - that's a commentary on the team rather than the player).
I guess that is the main issue I have. However, last season was just a small sample of play with him in and this system. Hopefully all goes well. I just don't want to see a repeat of the 2010-2011 season.

I just find it odd that there's never been a player as "unique" as him at the four. I'm not bashing him just on every team a starting big is rarely good/average defensively and very good on offense while being a sub-par rebounder (especially on the offensive glass). If the team does well then it's ok, but if the team doesn't do well...
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:57 AM   #94 (permalink)
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didn't want the game today how serious is the Bargnani injury
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:12 AM   #95 (permalink)
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From rantsports.com:
"However, the Raptors PR team has announced that Bargnani was kicked in the calf, giving him a left calf contusion, which is unrelated to last years injury, thankfully. The injury shouldn’t take more than a few days to a week to heal, if it really is just a contusion."
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:02 AM   #96 (permalink)
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I'm starting to think he is still injured. Not some random contusion.
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:27 PM   #97 (permalink)
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interesting...

"both 82games.com and NBA.com's stat tool confirm what any eyeball test suggests, showing that Toronto has allowed fewer points-per-100 with him off the court than on it in every season since 2007-08."
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Old 10-18-2012, 11:36 PM   #98 (permalink)
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so that video that was just posted about his defence is because of his fatigue? he should of played in the olympics, smh
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:40 AM   #99 (permalink)
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interesting...

"both 82games.com and NBA.com's stat tool confirm what any eyeball test suggests, showing that Toronto has allowed fewer points-per-100 with him off the court than on it in every season since 2007-08."
Lol give it up man
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:43 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Lol give it up man
I didn't make that up.
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