Band of brothers - Page 6
Old 04-28-2014, 03:09 PM   #101 (permalink)
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But calling him a superstar is not exaggeration? Anyway I had enough of that, I'm not here to turn anyone against Derozan. I'm happy when team is playing well and I don't care who is going to help us win as long as we win. But it bugs me that people are so quick to jump on and off the bandwagon and when they do it's all black and white.
I really don't hate Derozan, I was the one saying in the preseason that if he will continue playing like he does he will be top 10 sg. And people were calling me a moron, JoeyJo was one of them. Doesn't seem that crazy now does it?
There are very few players in the league that have no major flaws and that's fine, DD has his and he is working on it. All I want is that people would stop sugar coating those flaws or make it seem like a blasphemy if you mention them.

Agree seems like some of those articles are written in 10 minutes just to write something. I expect much more from so called basketball analysts, but It seems like Toronto Sun cares more about quantity over quality. Some of the posters in here could do a much better job
WTF are you dragging me into this for? First, DD deserves criticism when its due and credit when credit is due. Shades or grey and not so much black and white and some people just have one gear when they post. Second, I was one of the the only people that predicted we would win close to 49 games or you don't do that without DD. I didn't expect DD to be this good but I don't recall EVER doing a hatchet job on him. I have never thought was was a great player until this year but he's shown something to everyone. At worst I said he could be a great 6th man. I never called you a moron and I don't recall arguing endlessly that he would not be a top 10 SG and you can call someone else out instead of me and leave me the hell out of this.


The one thing this kid does do it go into the post every single game, gets hammered and elbowed and keeps going back. He plays with a lot of heart in that regard. And he deserves a bit of credit for playing his ass off for the Raptors and not being a pussy in that specific regard.

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Old 04-28-2014, 03:16 PM   #102 (permalink)
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I agree with this completely. The effort to hold out. The statistical mining and just grabbing on to those stats with dear life so as not to be wrong.

How do you respond. A facepalm does it nicely. I gave you a +1.

Exaggeration on the positive side is normal - this is Raptorsforum. The Raptors are having an incredible season - their should be exaggeration on the positive side. I think it's disappointing that there remains a few posters who can't let people post positive posts about Demar without trying so hard to argue that there is statistical evidence against Demar being as good as what some Raptor fans might think he can be.

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Old 04-28-2014, 03:22 PM   #103 (permalink)
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I agree with this completely. The effort to hold out. The statistical mining and just grabbing on to those stats with dear life so as not to be wrong.

How do you respond. A facepalm does it nicely. I gave you a +1.
how can you argue with statistical evidence when the discussion is being made in regards to a players improvements over previous seasons?

What other way is there to compare the two without using something as a base?

Unless I am wrong in assuming the stats respons wasn't in regards to the post I made showing the recorded statistical improvements Demar has made in the past season in an effort to show where the improvements did indeed come from. And also offered a narrative as to how/where some of the improvements might have been assisted.

HAS Demar improved this season, absolutely.

Was it all magical, or strictly based on his otherworldly heart and work ethic, no.
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Old 04-28-2014, 03:31 PM   #104 (permalink)
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I guess I can't disagree with your stats but the narrative is a bit played out considering the time of year.

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Old 04-28-2014, 03:39 PM   #105 (permalink)
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I guess I can't disagree with your stats but your narrative is definitely played out.
How is there even a narrative there?

Is it wrong to say that an increase in having the ball in ones hands doesn't translate at least partially to an increase in assists? or shot attempts? Or points?

Or an improvment on the defensive side of the ball can't be partially attributed to not defender the premier wing player on opposing teams anymore?

There is not narrative here, just an attempted unbiased counterpoint to a post regarding the "incredible advancements in every area of the game"

as well as he being "best player in the playoffs"

There is usually always a counter arguement, and mine had no "narrative" it was just that, a counter arguement.

I actually give credit for not getting worse from the extra usage, forgot in my original post, but his turnover have remained snstant even with an increase in usage, that alone is Demar BEST attribute, imo. That is pretty incredible. he also hasn't shot worse with more shots, which sometimes happens, volume usually equals worse efficiency. but he has maintained.
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Old 04-28-2014, 03:43 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Heart and passion do count for something in this game. And stats prove futile in measuring that. That's why Dwight constantly gets viewed mistakenly as a hugely impactful player - his lack of heart is not seen in the big numbers. He does of course have an impact with the numbers, but he also has an impact with how he approaches the game that is less desirable, and ultimately leads to underachieving.

There is something about watching with your eyes, as a fan, that is just as meaningful, if not more, than wads of data. My only objection is seeing DeMar in some stratosphere, and that mostly comes from seeing a lot of players over decades that have reached the stratosphere. At moments he gets within reach, but he still has to be able to sustain those moments some more to be in the highest company. And if he doesn't that would hardly mean any kind of failure. It does come down to the team in the end. Again - that is where the heart and the passion is so important. It's not just about him.
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Old 04-28-2014, 03:51 PM   #107 (permalink)
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how can you argue with statistical evidence when the discussion is being made in regards to a players improvements over previous seasons?

What other way is there to compare the two without using something as a base?

Unless I am wrong in assuming the stats respons wasn't in regards to the post I made showing the recorded statistical improvements Demar has made in the past season in an effort to show where the improvements did indeed come from. And also offered a narrative as to how/where some of the improvements might have been assisted.

HAS Demar improved this season, absolutely.

Was it all magical, or strictly based on his otherworldly heart and work ethic, no.
It feels as if you don't even watch the games.
I have watched every second of these playoffs and the things Demar has done
cannot be understood in a box score.

Yes, sometimes he still does boneheaded things and tries too hard but he is still so very young.
That combined with teams zoning in on him dramatically can mess up his stats and
make him look less than he is.

The headaches he causes, the focus and attention he gets and takes away from his teammates....
Pffft how can that relate in a stat sheet?

Stats are deceiving when it comes to sports.
There are SO many little things that cannot be measured or quantified.
This is basketball not an accounting firm.

If someone gives me a barrel filled with rocks and tells me the average weight of each rock is .2 kilograms ...
not a single one of those rocks might actually be .2 kilograms. :/

Stats are great on one hand, but they have to be combined with common sense, wisdom, knowledge
and other intangible qualities that numbers cannot illuminate on their own.

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Old 04-28-2014, 03:52 PM   #108 (permalink)
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I agree with this completely. The effort to hold out. The statistical mining and just grabbing on to those stats with dear life so as not to be wrong.

How do you respond. A facepalm does it nicely. I gave you a +1.

Exaggeration on the positive side is normal - this is Raptorsforum. The Raptors are having an incredible season - their should be exaggeration on the positive side. I think it's disappointing that there remains a few posters who can't let people post positive posts about Demar without trying so hard to argue that there is statistical evidence against Demar being as good as what some Raptor fans might think he can be.

Thanks a lot buddy, I'm glad somebody out there feels me!
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Old 04-28-2014, 03:59 PM   #109 (permalink)
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WTF are you dragging me into this for? First, DD deserves criticism when its due and credit when credit is due. Shades or grey and not so much black and white and some people just have one gear when they post. Second, I was one of the the only people that predicted we would win close to 49 games or you don't do that without DD. I didn't expect DD to be this good but I don't recall EVER doing a hatchet job on him. I have never thought was was a great player until this year but he's shown something to everyone. At worst I said he could be a great 6th man. I never called you a moron and I don't recall arguing endlessly that he would not be a top 10 SG and you can call someone else out instead of me and leave me the hell out of this.


The one thing this kid does do it go into the post every single game, gets hammered and elbowed and keeps going back. He plays with a lot of heart in that regard. And he deserves a bit of credit for playing his ass off for the Raptors and not being a pussy in that specific regard.
oh sorry I said close to top 5 SG

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DD was playing very well in the preseason, that's why I think he was close to top5. His FG% was great and he was scoring at will. He averaged around (guess)20points per game in limited minutes, if he could keep it up he would be 23-25pt per game around 50% FG scorer. His defense also looks improved
assuming he can keep it up I would say it's:

1. Harden
2. Wade
3. Kobe
4. Iggy
5. Ellis
6. Thompson
7. Derozan
8. Gordon
9. Martin
10. Evans

Just for the record I see Paul George as a SF.
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This is probabaly the best example of what makes people argue about DD on this forum. Preseason counts for jack. Now he's a top five SG? He's an allstar already basically? Wade, Kobe, Harden, George then DD? He's not even top 5 offensively until he can shoot 3s, be a defensive star or be insanely efficient on top of what he already is. Arguably you could add 5 more but I see no point in doing that here and creating an endless argument.

Nothing saying he can't be top 5 one day if he plays defense at all, but the band wagon is a little top heavy at the moment. DD played like an average shooting guard on an average team with an slightly above average contract. Anything else is a bit over the top.

And I wouldn't be against trading him as long as it was for his production with some small compensation for his potential, the problem is nobody desperately needs him enough right now to overpay since BC does not have a GM job and we already fleeced NY.

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..... This is probably the best example of how important reading skills are. Once again I am not saying that he is top 5 SG! Top 10 maybe, What I said was that he was playing close to the level of top 5 in preseason. I even made a little list for people like you, but i guess you missed that too. I do realize that it's preseason and we shouldn't jump the gun, that's why I said if he can keep it up .. As for Bandwagon I'm really not fan of Derozan and I wouldn't mind one bit if we would trade him.
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I said he's not top 5 or 10. Which is addresses exactly CLOSE TO TOP 5. No... I didn't miss it but you did.

As for your list I would say you're not really objective.
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DD won't come close to Rudy's best season. He plays a pretty well rounded game with the only serious flaw being his shooting last year and the one prior, and he had bad eyes. There's a reason why Gay got a 19 million dollar deal guys.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:14 PM   #110 (permalink)
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It feels as if you don't even watch the games.
I have watched every second of these playoffs and the things Demar has done cannot be understood in a box score.
Yes, sometimes he still does boneheaded things and tries too hard but he is still so very young.
That combined with teams zoning in on him dramatically can mess up his stats and make him look less than he is.

The headaches he causes, the focus and attention he gets and takes away from his teammates....
Pffft how can that relate in a stat sheet?

Stats are deceiving when it comes to sports.
There are SO many little things that cannot be measured or quantified.
This is basketball not an accounting firm.

If someone gives me a barrel filled with rocks and tells me the average weight of each rock is .2 kilograms ...
not a single one of those rocks might actually be .2 kilograms. :/

Stats are great on one hand, but they have to be combined with common sense, wisdom, knowledge
and other intangible qualities that numbers can't illuminate on their own.
I was responding to a post in regards to your statement about Demars massive improvements this season, has nothing to do with playoff numbers/success.

You are not wrong, however there is not quantitative proof of any sort or "intangible value". then players like Fields would show much more value. This X factor that you speak of is hard to actually evaluate due to it being a value that changes based upon the person making them. Some can look at a Demar top of the key ISO as detrimental to things like ball movement and an inside out structured offense, others view it as making the most out of a poor offense by milking the offense of your top scorer.

It is all relative to the person making those assumptions, all we can rely upon with any certainty is what was can quantify. Statistics. And use those to assist in formulating something consistent when valuing this unknown "x" value.

Your analogy in regards to a bucket or rocks is a good one, however what we are trying to do is figure out what the weight of the barrel full of them is without a scale. We know the average weight and we can count how many rocks are in the barrel, therefore we can estimate the value of the total barrel. Of course it isn't perfect, but it is alot better than saying, hmmmm, that barrel looks like it weight 800lbs.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:37 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Of course it isn't perfect, but it is alot better than saying, hmmmm, that barrel looks like it weight 800lbs.
In terms of basketball, it actually isn't better. The eye test is better. I trust Sam Mitchell's eye vs. Hollinger's numbers. I trust Casey's eyes vs. Collangelo's anaytic's team. I trust my eyes vs. your analysis of your numbers.

The stat accumulation process doesn't yet do the game justice. It's not close to baseball. Every play is connected. Every role is different. I love numbers but I can only shake my head at the way they are misapplied to the game of basketball at times. They are best used as a complementary piece to a solid qualitative argument.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:48 PM   #112 (permalink)
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In terms of basketball, it actually isn't better. The eye test is better. I trust Sam Mitchell's eye vs. Hollinger's numbers. I trust Casey's eyes vs. Collangelo's anaytic's team. I trust my eyes vs. your analysis of your numbers.

The stat accumulation process doesn't yet do the game justice. It's not close to baseball. Every play is connected. Every role is different. I love numbers but I can only shake my head at the way they are misapplied to the game of basketball at times. They are best used as a complementary piece to a solid qualitative argument.
I think you need both, but you need to be able to use numbers to attempt to validate your opinions.

You can say all you want that Demars ability to shoot makes it easier on his teamates to score. That may hold value, but if his shooting percentages was only 25%, it raises the question of how much value his shooting creates in open opportunities for others when the defenses wouldn't need to focus on him as much.

In regards to the playoffs I would say your assessments are plausible due to the decline in his shooting percentages( a possibility of which is coming from tougher defenses) and the high offensive numbers from the front court.

However his sharp decline in his assist% and increase in turnovers would show that the defense is not allowing him to pass, and making him shoot and he is doing a poor job making them pay.

Add that to a large increase in GV's numbers tell us that GV is the one who is making our bigs perform better. Which the last game in particular would pass the eye test as well.
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Old 04-28-2014, 04:55 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:44 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:52 PM   #115 (permalink)
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However his sharp decline in his assist% and increase in turnovers would show that the defense is not allowing him to pass, and making him shoot and he is doing a poor job making them pay.
they were definitely playing to make him pass in the second half of last night.
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:52 PM   #116 (permalink)
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sorry for confusion, was typing while on hold and I had bad versions of bad songs in my ear.

To paraphrase what I was saying, this eye test is all relative to the percieved value of the player an the impact on his team by what it is that he does.

For example, does player A who consistently shoots 40% really draw enough attention to allow for better looks for teammates. If that player A shot 50% would those looks improve? If player A shoots 30 percent does it affect the outcome of the player b percentages.

Basically it is all relative, but if you can attempt to validate what eyes are seeing with what numbers are saying it adds lot more credence to the opinion.
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:54 PM   #117 (permalink)
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oh sorry I said close to top 5 SG
OMG. I don't know how to say tell you Top 5 and 10 are a big difference in quality of play?

You had him at 7th.. so now you had him in the top 5? Ok. Well.. That's probably right after this year so you weren't right either and undershot it. But if you want to come out and say he was that good last year or you knew he would be so much improved this year base don his preseason FG% I'm just going to laugh and ask to borrow your crystal ball since its not his FG% that's making a difference. And all my arguments are DD were about the PAST and written in past tense. And still....wtf are you dragging me into this for to prove how psychic you are. Go measure your dick against someone else and keep me the hell out of it.

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Old 04-28-2014, 05:56 PM   #118 (permalink)
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they were definitely playing to make him pass in the second half of last night.
no, not letting him pass, but not letting him make them successfully.
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:57 PM   #119 (permalink)
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The eye test is all relative to the beholder of the eye.

What we're seeing with Demar is often the attempt to use numbers to invalidate what eyes are seeing which holds little credence to the owners of said eyes.
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Old 04-28-2014, 05:59 PM   #120 (permalink)
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they were definitely playing to make him pass in the second half of last night.
I thought they did an amazing job of stopping the ball, trapping, and smothering him enough to make any pass difficult. And not only with him. The same happened with Vasquez and and pretty much anyone on the perimeter, or really beyond the perimeter the way they were going at it. Guys had to lob passes to the open man, which bought the defense enough to time to rotate over to where the pass went. The only problem was that they expended a lot of energy. But over the last two games it was really hard to get the ball inside without turning it over, and the side to side movement wasn't much easier. It was some really impressive, tough defense.
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