Amico: League-wide interest in DD - Page 5
Old 10-25-2013, 03:40 PM   #81 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,510
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pzabby View Post
what you're expecting 9 million to get you is a dominant all star/near superstar. but in today's market that costs more than 9, probably just shy of the max, if not the max. demar's contract is NOT a reason we should trade him. contracts hurting us right now are like fields's contact. if we keep the contracts that are worth it, and subtract the ones that aren't, we're in a good cap situation. what's hurting our cap situation is NOT demar, but rather rudy, fields, etc.
No, that's not what I'm assuming. Never said his contact was a problem either. You're missing my point because you're fixated on defending demar.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 04:12 PM   #82 (permalink)
and a 1, and a 2, and a 1,2,3,4!

Senior Member
 
pzabby's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: toronto
Posts: 7,055
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
No, that's not what I'm assuming. Never said his contact was a problem either. You're missing my point because you're fixated on defending demar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I agree that he may be capable, I just don't see him fully committing on D and leadership doesn't have to be hoisted on anyone. It's a nice story that he wants to lead though.

Again, we all don't have to agree. I respect the position that he may one day be worth the money but I don't see it being true for another few years if at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
no... that's not what I've said at all.

I'm saying, if we can sell based on his potential that you see, then we should. That potential is far from a given to be realized.

And yes, what he is now is not worth 9M per.
don't go back on your word
pzabby is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 04:32 PM   #83 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,510
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pzabby View Post
don't go back on your word
I haven't. You're trying to lead the argument..... I've never said his contract was a problem, just that it was too much for what he is worth. I'd trade others too, but he's the one being overhyped in my view. I'd sell high.

Last edited by carp; 10-25-2013 at 04:41 PM.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 04:39 PM   #84 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,653
Representing:
Default

Stretching and hoping in all the wrong places. When potential is involved you base value off of character - when cheering and being a fan is involved I look to character. When you're high on Bargnani and low on Derozan, I'm not sure you're a great judge of character.

It's funny that Ol' stick-in-the-mud would call anybody stuck on anything :kettle:. Reread Finstocks post and you will find the logical response of somebody critical of Demar simply acknowledging some very exciting play in the pre-season.
bjjs is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 04:51 PM   #85 (permalink)
Follow @torraptorsforum on twitter

Senior Member

 
box92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,854
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I haven't. You're trying to lead the argument..... I've never said his contract was a problem, just that it was too much for what he is worth. I'd trade others too, but he's the one being overhyped in my view. I'd sell high.
I really dont think it is a problem, by the end of the season I truly believe if he keeps playing like this, it will be worth it and some might even say its a steal to have him locked for 4 years, not even in his prime yet at 24 and a 20+ ppg scorer. Everything is coming easier for him and he is always adding something new to his game. His size is perfect now, and he has been focusing on his passing, defense and you can tell his handles. His 3pt looks better and his post moves are just insane.
box92 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 04:59 PM   #86 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,510
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjjs View Post
Stretching and hoping in all the wrong places. When potential is involved you base value off of character - when cheering and being a fan is involved I look to character. When you're high on Bargnani and low on Derozan, I'm not sure you're a great judge of character.

It's funny that Ol' stick-in-the-mud would call anybody stuck on anything :kettle:. Reread Finstocks post and you will find the logical response of somebody critical of Demar simply acknowledging some very exciting play in the pre-season.
your insults aren't valuable at all.... whining about me doesn't add anything of substance.

We aren't talking about Bargnani here.... why bring him up again?
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 05:03 PM   #87 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,207
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
your insults aren't valuable at all.... whining about me doesn't add anything of substance.

We aren't talking about Bargnani here.... why bring him up again?
He brings it up because it's weird how you critique DD so much and thoroughly while you never did the same for Bargs. You were on the exact opposite spectrum regarding Bargs how you regard DD.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 05:15 PM   #88 (permalink)
Follow @torraptorsforum on twitter

Senior Member

 
box92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,854
Representing:
Default

DD is better than bargs
box92 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 05:17 PM   #89 (permalink)
is the baby faced assassin

Banned
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: YO MAMMA
Posts: 81,104
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by box1992 View Post
DD is better than bargs
If he wasn't Bargs would still be here. Captain obvious

His work ethic alone makes him better than Bargnani.
jeffb is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 06:06 PM   #90 (permalink)
Likes raw prospects with a great work ethic...

Senior Member
 
LKeet6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Liverpool (UK)
Posts: 2,203
Representing:
Default

I'm gonna have to kind of stick up for carp here.

i've OFTEN disagreed with him and i possibly even agree with what bjjs said that carp has been fixated on some things, so he can't really accuse others of that.

but, he never makes it personal (from what i've seen,) and people often do to him and his arguments usually follow some kind of logic and remain consistent. A lot of the people, on my side of the argument do not follow logic and remain consistent and are fixated on things and seem to get very agitated and take it personally that he doesn't like DD, or does like Bargs or whatever.

i don't agree with him but i don't take it personally!
LKeet6 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 06:16 PM   #91 (permalink)
Follow @torraptorsforum on twitter

Senior Member

 
box92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,854
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffb View Post
If he wasn't Bargs would still be here. Captain obvious

His work ethic alone makes him better than Bargnani.
It was supposed to be an obvious post.
box92 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 10:40 PM   #92 (permalink)
.

Senior Member
 
carp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 11,510
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! View Post
He brings it up because it's weird how you critique DD so much and thoroughly while you never did the same for Bargs. You were on the exact opposite spectrum regarding Bargs how you regard DD.
I agree, I defended bargs, but often because the hate was so irrational. Bargs isn't a star, but guess what, neither is DD. Neither are worth their contracts. Who cares though.

Bullying isn't okay. Insult me all you want, doesn't make you right.

Lkeet, I appreciate that response. Your logic is respected.
carp is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 11:08 PM   #93 (permalink)
"Fake All-Star"

Senior Member
 
TORaptor4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 16,433
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I agree, I defended bargs, but often because the hate was so irrational. Bargs isn't a star, but guess what, neither is DD. Neither are worth their contracts. Who cares though.

Bullying isn't okay. Insult me all you want, doesn't make you right.

Lkeet, I appreciate that response. Your logic is respected.
Have you taken a look at some of the guards who are making $8-9M/yr?

Are they ALL head & shoulders above DD?

What exactly would make him "worth his contract" in your eyes?
TORaptor4Ever is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 11:23 PM   #94 (permalink)
LX
effin' ineffable

In the Paint
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 30,071
Representing:
Default

I can recall myself, thinking very assuredly, that Amir was not worth his contract. Sure he had potential, but surely he was what he was, which was a hustle guy off the bench that was pretty weak defensively and suffered as a result from too many bad fouls that kept him off the floor too often. I often thought he was good trade bait for a team needing a big with a good motor that was willing to take the expense and offer a draft pick.

Look what happened. His hard work did eventually pay off. It all came together for him. Not overnight - he made steady progress since Triano was dumped and his role could go beyond running up and down the court with little direction. The progress showed most dramatically once the albatross that was Andrea was not on the court. Without a weak link, and proper coaching, Amir proved himself as a very good team defender, among other things.

Who wants Amir traded now? Who questions his value or contract? And yet it seemed pretty far-fetched for any of us to reach the point where we would decry suggestions that he should maybe come off the bench.

Try to understand the effect of the team on the individual, and the prospect of the individual making the kind of jump that Amir made. Hard work and improved circumstances can lead to some refreshing results. Yes, it still needs to be done, but to suggest that it is far-fetched is a little unfair at this point. Demar is already opening eyes to the same extent Amir did two seasons ago when he looked like the guy to show some faith in up front, rather than Andrea.

Last edited by LX; 10-25-2013 at 11:25 PM.
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 11:29 PM   #95 (permalink)
LX
effin' ineffable

In the Paint
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 30,071
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I agree, I defended bargs, but often because the hate was so irrational. Bargs isn't a star, but guess what, neither is DD. Neither are worth their contracts. Who cares though.

Bullying isn't okay. Insult me all you want, doesn't make you right.

Lkeet, I appreciate that response. Your logic is respected.
Boo hoo. You may be right to a point. But you are also the guy that has relentlessly hammered Demar, usually completely out of context. You became the guy who predictably made some lame-ass comment about our shooting guard that can't shoot blahblahblah. You defended bargs, and then you shot down the guy you saw as the next in line. Boring. Who cares indeed?
LX is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 11:43 PM   #96 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,207
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by box1992 View Post
DD is better than bargs
Um, yes. I don't think anyone is debating that.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2013, 11:48 PM   #97 (permalink)
La Decima!!!!!

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 7,207
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
I agree, I defended bargs, but often because the hate was so irrational. Bargs isn't a star, but guess what, neither is DD. Neither are worth their contracts. Who cares though.

Bullying isn't okay. Insult me all you want, doesn't make you right.

Lkeet, I appreciate that response. Your logic is respected.
-100000000000000000000000

The critique was warranted given his play.

Really????????????? You're saying I'm bullying you? After the critique and absolute s**t I got from you and 2-3 others constantly when I would critique Bargs' play with logic and actual stats (I'm one of the few people who ever provide that by the way). I don't know if it's funny, sad, or ironic that you're saying I'm bullying you.
LET'S GO RAPTORS!!!!! is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2013, 02:35 AM   #98 (permalink)
whatever

Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: toronto
Posts: 10,417
Representing:
Default

So far, demar hasn't played like a 9-10M player, far from it. But there's no question the potential is there to easily exceed that threshold. Unlike many fans, I was never too concerned about his 3pt shooting, lots of good to great SGs didn't have a good 3pt shot (wade, rip hamilton etc). However, he needs to step his production outside scoring. Defense, rebounds, steals and blocks need to be significantly improved. I think his efficiency on offense will be much better this season based on what I've seen so far, and if at least that happens, he will be worth his contract. But if the other stuff doesn't, I would definitely trade him at some point.
moremilk is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2013, 03:36 AM   #99 (permalink)
Likes raw prospects with a great work ethic...

Senior Member
 
LKeet6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Liverpool (UK)
Posts: 2,203
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LX View Post

Try to understand the effect of the team on the individual, and the prospect of the individual making the kind of jump that Amir made. Hard work and improved circumstances can lead to some refreshing results. Yes, it still needs to be done, but to suggest that it is far-fetched is a little unfair at this point. Demar is already opening eyes to the same extent Amir did two seasons ago when he looked like the guy to show some faith in up front, rather than Andrea.
great post. there's the key right there. And why i don't agree with tanking. And why the talk about "winning culture" is correct, even if the tank commanders don't like it.
LKeet6 is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2013, 08:58 AM   #100 (permalink)
a baller

Senior Member
 
bjjs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,653
Representing:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LKeet6 View Post
I'm gonna have to kind of stick up for carp here.

i've OFTEN disagreed with him and i possibly even agree with what bjjs said that carp has been fixated on some things, so he can't really accuse others of that.

but, he never makes it personal (from what i've seen,) and people often do to him and his arguments usually follow some kind of logic and remain consistent. A lot of the people, on my side of the argument do not follow logic and remain consistent and are fixated on things and seem to get very agitated and take it personally that he doesn't like DD, or does like Bargs or whatever.

i don't agree with him but i don't take it personally!
It may have been a bit harsh and I might be "rubbing it in a little", but there is nothing logical about bringing up Demar Derozan or Chris Bosh every time somebody notices that Andrea Bargnani was fucking the dog on defense one night. Three years of that was a little tiring and didn't make for great discussion. And yet it continues on...


It's always been personal for Carp, never logical, and I get it, he was a true Andrea fan and it was hard for him to read the constant criticism. It's time to move on and enjoy good basketball.

Last edited by bjjs; 10-26-2013 at 09:22 AM.
bjjs is offline   Boss Key Wife Key Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright RaptorsForum.com 2005-2011

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24